A Few Questions from Newbie

[David Bresch]

I have a few questions about hats, their on-line appreciation, and Classic Style. First, you have to appreciate I have never owned any hat but a fur winter one that I am not going to wear in favor of a sheepskin ambassador I just bought. I also have a custom hat in the works with Art Fawcett.

I also just purchased the first three issues of Classic Style.

A few questions:

1) How does one appreciate hats in on-line pictures? For instance, someone just posted a picture of an Art Fawcett creation: don't get me wrong, it looks fine, but why does it look better than a Borsalino or a Biltmore or a Stetson? I understand it may have wonderful qualities were I to inspect it, but what can we observe in a picture, besides that it fits?

2) Do the editors of Classic Style read this forum?

3) I understand that many people who appreciate hats appreciate vintage 1930-40s clothing. I am not one of them. I think hats could be wonderful modern accessories that allow us to escape the jacket/trousers/tie/shirt/shoes fascism that men are currently subjected to. I would like to see hats in that context, without a hint of retro. Do you think Classic Style will oblige? That is the key to renewing hats as a common accessory, in my opinion.

The collector is me is titillated by hats: they are the perfect set-up, modern crap versus idealized older examples; this harks to my love of old vocal recordings, about which there is more controversy than hats I think. Lots of people think modern performances are good in their own right (not me), where as I infer from posts on Fedora Lounge that no one sticks up for modern hats (except custom).

 

[John in Covina]

I'll bite. I can't answer every thing completely but here is some of the basis fro the directions and themes.

First the guy in charge of this here forum is Michael Key the very same editor of Classic Style.

Many of the writersfor CS can be found here but others are from outside the Lounge also.

THe vintage link is there and is echoed by the concept of CLASSIC Style, not MODERN Style.

Although, a current custom hat is your best bet for a top to best quality hat currently, you will find that some current makers are given a nod to as well made such as Akubra. The other great names such as Borsalino and Stetson are usually pounded on because they were top quality and that quality was not maintained. Hats from the 60's are better than now and as you go back in time to the 1930's and 1920's the variety of quality levels was astounding and the fur felt was better quality. SO the lowest levels of fur felt were better than now in most cases and the number of quality levels available was greater than today. Those two items should express very clearly that that past was better and so vintage has the advantage in quality. However vintage is a limited resource so if you have a specifc design or color in mind you may not be able to find it or find it in your size at any price, now custom gets the nod because it allows for that very flexibility. Also a hat made for the shape particular of your head will have an advantage over most regular production current hats or vintage hats should you be in a difficult to find size or the added difficulty of say a LONG OVAL which is rarer than regular sized hats and found infrequently in new.

Does that help?

 

[David Bresch]

This helps, but there a few points that remain: how can one appreciate the pictures of hats?

So far as vintage versus modern style de gustibus non disputandum est...that was just my opinion. I am not sure that "classic" and "vintage" are the same thing, in fact I can see how someone might consider them mutually exclusive.

 

[John in Covina]

So far as vintage versus modern style de gustibus non disputandum est...that was just my opinion.

Actually taste is one of the few things worth arguing.

 

[John in Covina]

I am not sure that "classic" and "vintage" are the same thing, in fact I can see how someone might consider them mutually exclusive.

**********
Although not the same, classic often refers to an established bar of excellence such as a classic coupe or classic colonial architecture. As established in the past.

A modern classic can occur but that reference has the feeling of mixing the 2 things, evoking that of the past and the present as it were.

If we refer to classic literature most would place those writings not as much in the recent past but further back. A classic automobile again posible to have a modern classic but most would consider it to be an older vehicle.

A classic cocktail, a classic suit, classic TV, classic movies we tend to think not recent for the most part.

Vintage has winemaking defenitions but also can be characterized by excellence, maturity, and "enduring appeal" which also means= classic.

SO there is a connection by most standards as to vintage and classic.

 

[John in Covina]

This helps, but there a few points that remain: how can one appreciate the pictures of hats?

********************

How does one appreciate photos of cars, homes, backyards or a glass of beer?

At a certain level without much education about a subject it may appeal as a suggestion as to being "right" as in the right backyard to entertain friends, the right vehicle to cruise Sunset Blvd, the right house to have in its surroundings like modern in a desert landscape or English Tudor in a green and semi-wooded area... A picture of a glass of beer, perhaps a bright a clear lager with a nice head in a dew encased glass can say "drink me for refreshment!"

Here's where to start with hat pictures:
Now with hats you may be drawn to a particular style or color or bash, see it in the context of what style of dress it is being worn with. As you learn about quality, and finish you may pick up on construction detail or see something as to the quality of the felt. You may pick up on the context of the photo, what is the wearer doing or portraying and link that with style.
Whether or not the hat seems to go with the wearer or their clothing style.

Photgraphy can be art, a story or an entisement, that seems to define something about how each type are meant to be viewed.

 

[David Bresch]

Regarding the glass of beer, that is where I am at now, very hard for me to appreciate a picture of a hat, or at least its relative merits.

 

[Tango Yankee]

A few questions:

1) How does one appreciate hats in on-line pictures? For instance, someone just posted a picture of an Art Fawcett creation: don't get me wrong, it looks fine, but why does it look better than a Borsalino or a Biltmore or a Stetson? I understand it may have wonderful qualities were I to inspect it, but what can we observe in a picture, besides that it fits?

David,

This is really an excellent question. Unfortunately, I don't think there is an easy answer but there is a simple one: experience with real hats.

I started getting really interested in hats oh, about 6 months ago. I don't have any place near me that sells hats, so I did a lot of looking on line. I found this forum. I learned what hat makers (and from what time periods) had a good reputation among members here. I looked at hats for sale on eBay.

I bought a few hats on eBay, hats that I thought looked good. When they arrived I found out that it can be difficult for a newby to judge things like brim width--the hats I had bought turned out to be stingy-brimmed hats. Nice hats, though, as I'd bought a lot of four Cavanaghs. I continued buying hats (to the point where my wife thinks I'm now obsessed, and she may be right! ) and started to develop a feel for things through comparing what I had bid on and what I later held in my hand.

Matters are complicated by the range of quality of the photographs themselves as well as the number of photos and the angles from which they were taken. A blurry photo can equally hide the qualities and flaws of a hat. The angle can make a narrow brim look wider (or vice-versa), the crown taller or shorter. The camera can lie.

So, I guess what I'm saying is that you develop an eye for it through experience. Even then, part of it is simply knowing more about the type of hat in question. Photographs of the outside of two apparently identical Open Roads may not reveal any significant differences in quality, but if you've handled older ORs and more recent ones you know that there is a distinct difference in the feel of the felt and in the construction. By learning from posts here you'll know how to distinguish between them by features such as the differences in the size tags, the liner, the sweatband.

As for the second part of your question, why does one of Art's creations look better than a Borsalino or a Biltmore or a Stetson (to paraphrase), it depends on whether or not you meant that literally. If you mean that to you that particular hat looks better then the others, then I'd say that the primary reason for that has to do with your emotional response to the photos--something about the hat appeals to your senses more than the others.

If you mean how can one distinguish between the various hats in quality by photos alone, you may not be able to. A well-photographed $25 all-wool hat may look much nicer than a $200 poorly-photographed Stetson.

In the end, hands-on experience is the key. I have far from an expert's eye, but my experience has likely helped in that my mind makes subconcious comparisons between what I'm looking at on-line and hats I've held and examined in person.

Still, even that experience can't compete with the emotional response a beautiful and well-presented hat can bring!

I don't know if this rambling response helps, but it's kind of how things went for me.

Cheers,
Tom

 

[ScionPI2005]

David,

This is really an excellent question. Unfortunately, I don't think there is an easy answer but there is a simple one: experience with real hats.

I started getting really interested in hats oh, about 6 months ago. I don't have any place near me that sells hats, so I did a lot of looking on line. I found this forum. I learned what hat makers (and from what time periods) had a good reputation among members here. I looked at hats for sale on eBay.

I bought a few hats on eBay, hats that I thought looked good. When they arrived I found out that it can be difficult for a newby to judge things like brim width--the hats I had bought turned out to be stingy-brimmed hats. Nice hats, though, as I'd bought a lot of four Cavanaghs. I continued buying hats (to the point where my wife thinks I'm now obsessed, and she may be right! ) and started to develop a feel for things through comparing what I had bid on and what I later held in my hand.

Matters are complicated by the range of quality of the photographs themselves as well as the number of photos and the angles from which they were taken. A blurry photo can equally hide the qualities and flaws of a hat. The angle can make a narrow brim look wider (or vice-versa), the crown taller or shorter. The camera can lie.

So, I guess what I'm saying is that you develop an eye for it through experience. Even then, part of it is simply knowing more about the type of hat in question. Photographs of the outside of two apparently identical Open Roads may not reveal any significant differences in quality, but if you've handled older ORs and more recent ones you know that there is a distinct difference in the feel of the felt and in the construction. By learning from posts here you'll know how to distinguish between them by features such as the differences in the size tags, the liner, the sweatband.

As for the second part of your question, why does one of Art's creations look better than a Borsalino or a Biltmore or a Stetson (to paraphrase), it depends on whether or not you meant that literally. If you mean that to you that particular hat looks better then the others, then I'd say that the primary reason for that has to do with your emotional response to the photos--something about the hat appeals to your senses more than the others.

If you mean how can one distinguish between the various hats in quality by photos alone, you may not be able to. A well-photographed $25 all-wool hat may look much nicer than a $200 poorly-photographed Stetson.

In the end, hands-on experience is the key. I have far from an expert's eye, but my experience has likely helped in that my mind makes subconcious comparisons between what I'm looking at on-line and hats I've held and examined in person.

Still, even that experience can't compete with the emotional response a beautiful and well-presented hat can bring!

I don't know if this rambling response helps, but it's kind of how things went for me.

Cheers,
Tom

That was a very well put response.

 

[mingoslim]

Too true . . .

A well-photographed $25 all-wool hat may look much nicer than a $200 poorly-photographed Stetson.

In fact, when I am eBaying, I find I get my best deals on poorly photographed vintage models which have been improperly cared-for or improperly stored. They looked mashed or dented . . . and often go for a fraction of the price of inferior hats which have been photographed well.

A couple of months back I picked up a beautful 1940s Borsalino Alessandria for about $30. In the photo it looked smashed and wrinkled . . . but with a little steam, it turned out to be a real beauty . . . a hat that I could easily resale for $150, $200 or more . . .

 

[Tango Yankee]

In fact, when I am eBaying, I find I get my best deals on poorly photographed vintage models which have been improperly cared-for or improperly stored. They looked mashed or dented . . . and often go for a fraction of the price of inferior hats which have been photographed well.

A couple of months back I picked up a beautful 1940s Borsalino Alessandria for about $30. In the photo it looked smashed and wrinkled . . . but with a little steam, it turned out to be a real beauty . . . a hat that I could easily resale for $150, $200 or more . . .

Indeed! Now that I've learned more about hats and how to clean and care for them I've started looking for such hats myself. I've recently purchased several lots of hats that have included Stratoliners, Mallorys, and Marathons. Now I need to set up a work area where I can indulge in this part of hat collecting.

Cheers,
Tom

 

[HamletJSD]

(to the point where my wife thinks I'm now obsessed, and she may be right! )

Only been here a few weeks, but glad to hear I am not the only one suffering from this affliction :fedora:

 

[bolthead]

Yikes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tango Yankee
(to the point where my wife thinks I'm now obsessed, and she may be right! )

Only been here a few weeks, but glad to hear I am not the only one suffering from this affliction.

You can also add me to this growing list as well.....

 

[Joel Tunnah]

...I infer from posts on Fedora Lounge that no one sticks up for modern hats (except custom).

This is not accurate. There are many Lounge members that enjoy buying and wearing modern production hats. They don't tend to be as vocal or prolific as the vintage/custom-only crowd.

I own several vintage hats from the 1960's that are, IMHO, inferior to a modern Borsalino.

Joel

 

[David Bresch]

Joel, can you elaborate (on modern vs vintage)?

I have an opinion already, that one cannot judge a hat's merits in pictures, except for its shape and maybe fit. I am open to opposing views however.

 

[Undertow]

There are many Lounge members that enjoy buying and wearing modern production hats. They don't tend to be as vocal or prolific as the vintage/custom-only crowd.

I guess I kinda fit into this category. I'm not worried about when the hat was made, only if it's good quality. I own good modern hats and a few good vintage. I don't pick a hat soley based on its production date.

Then again, I'm also a fool that enjoys a well made wool felt. (I still like fur felt more, but you know...we've already discussed this topic to death!)

 

[jaco]

May I?

Hi all

This is one of the best discussion that I saw here!
I can add my experience to this: as Italian I'm lucky and unlucky at the same time. Lucky to live in a city in which you can find many good modern hat and a few vintage, unlucky because almost all the modern are Borsalino (with all the implications that you know with these hats).
Internet is a very powerful equipment that allows you to look many different hats from many different vendors and many different stores worldwide...and that's a real big problem (if you don't have, like me and some other people, enough experience and a very sharp and trained eye): you can find the same hat in, let's say, 10 stores and in every store the hat looks different...moreover it looks different from the one pictured in the hat maker site. Try to look at the various akubra vendors site to agree with me!
This is a potential harmful situation. The very first times in which I surfed to find out the "right" hat I fell in love with a stetson at miller hat store. The difficult custom crossing between U.S. and Italy withhold my purchase: this was good because after many visits to various stores in Milan I reached the conclusion that actual stetson (please, take care of my speaking because, I repeat, I'm absolutely far from being expert) felt is not so fine for my taste (too stiff).
I hope that sooner or later I achieve the "next level of sensibility" so to understand at a glance the real feel of a hat: and I must express gratitude to this spectacular forum because I'm learning every day something and every day I'm appreciating more and more this beautiful world.
MANY THANKS TO YOU ALL.:eusa_clap

 

[Feraud]

3) I understand that many people who appreciate hats appreciate vintage 1930-40s clothing. I am not one of them. I think hats could be wonderful modern accessories that allow us to escape the jacket/trousers/tie/shirt/shoes fascism that men are currently subjected to. I would like to see hats in that context, without a hint of retro. Do you think Classic Style will oblige? That is the key to renewing hats as a common accessory, in my opinion.

To answer this first part, I would say that many modern style magazines aside from Classic Style view hats as an accessory with no emphasis on retro. The resources are readily available. Head to your local bookstore and search the men's interest magazines.

where as I infer from posts on Fedora Lounge that no one sticks up for modern hats (except custom).

The reason very few people stick up for modern hats (except custom) is because the typical Fedora Lounge member tends to analyze and obsess (in a good way) the form and function of their hats. After spending many hours reading the questions and replies and purchasing new and vintage fedoras make many conclude that modern mass produced fedoras generally (but not all) are not worth the money being asked for such products.
The average Fedora Lounge member does not see a fedora as a simle cast off accessory to be put on the head and forgotten about. We view hats, jackets, suits, etc. with as much interest as members of every hobby/lifestyle view their particular fascinations. We hunt and peck around for fedoras and share our acquired knowledge with like minded people.