A barf worthy rip off of an appropriated pattern

[red devil]

I think there's something of a division here (not in oppositional sense, really, just in that there two groups).

Call it the 'Shinki side' and the 'fit side'.

Both groups are interested in all aspects of a jacket, but each prioritizes one. The 'Shinki' side puts the right leather and construction first, with fit a lesser concern. The 'fit' side is the other way around, putting pattern and fit first.

The latter group seems to enjoy a wider variety– you'll see a $500 jacket next to a $3000 jacket.

Just my observations but I've seen pretty much this over the past few years.

Not sure this distinction counts... where do you put Himel? He uses shinki, gets good fits in general, but his construction is inferior to Japanese (as per his admission in an older thread).

I would change the general groups in "prestige" and " functional" maybe? Although I could come up with another group called "passionate".

I suspect the vintage crowd can be found in all these three categories depending on their priorities.

Off topic: Do we still exalt Shinki at all? Yes they produce nice hh leathers. So do Italian tanneries. By now we know Shinki is just a buzzword right?

I think so...

First we had CXL, then Shinki tookl over. And who knows if Badalassi will take over at some point. I guess part of us jjust like names beyond the product itself, human nature maybe?

 

[Colin G]

I believe the reason we’ve seen like 800 Mulholland (s) for sale in our in house swap meet is because it’s nearly 1/4 as cool as what you have hanging there, while the FC version is so far off the chart, it does not even register.

I think the reason is that unlike most Freewheelers jackets, the Mulholland is boxy and quite poor-fitting. I really like Freewheelers and can easily strap on any jacket and have it fit great but when I tried on a Mulholland I immediately took it off and wondered what all the fuss is about. Plus, I really dislike those spread collars. Thumbs down.

 

[ton312]

I think the reason is that unlike most Freewheelers jackets, the Mulholland is boxy and quite poor-fitting. I really like Freewheelers and can easily strap on any jacket and have it fit great but when I tried on a Mulholland I immediately took it off and wondered what all the fuss is about. Plus, I really dislike those spread collars. Thumbs down.

There was quite the fever pitch roar for the Mulholland, I found it strange that they were popping up with such frequency in the classifieds. It's interesting to hear about the boxy fit. That is certainly something it does not share with the Cal from which the design is based. All my Cals have been so tapered they create a bee's waist, some so much so, that despite the right fit everywhere else, I could not get the zip started unless the laces were fully out. And even then...TIGHT.

 

[Blackadder]

There was quite the fever pitch roar for the Mulholland, I found it strange that they were popping up with such frequency in the classifieds. It's interesting to hear about the boxy fit. That is certainly something it does not share with the Cal from which the design is based. All my Cals have been so tapered they create a bee's waist, some so much so, that despite the right fit everywhere else, I could not get the zip started unless the laces were fully out. And even then...TIGHT.

Yes, happened in the past 2 years or so. It suddenly surpassed San Mateo, La Brea and Centinela to become the most popular FW jacket. In 2016-2017, I started looking for a 2nd hand Mulholland after I bought my San Mateo. There weren't any demand back then. I have since given up because of the weight I put on during Covid. None of the FW would fit me now. I am now a 50s vintage guy because most 50s vintage would fit me. Having said that, not all Japanese brands are slim like RM, FH and FCL. For example, Toyo's are usually closer to Western fit so are the Few. Too bad the Few closed down.

 

[ton312]

Yes, happened in the past 2 years or so. It suddenly surpassed San Mateo, La Brea and Centinela to become the most popular FW jacket. In 2016-2017, I started looking for a 2nd hand Mulholland after I bought my San Mateo. There weren't any demand back then. I have since given up because of the weight I put on during Covid. None of the FW would fit me now. I am now a 50s vintage guy because most 50s vintage would fit me. Having said that, not all Japanese brands are slim like RM, FH and FCL. For example, Toyo's are usually closer to Western fit so are the Few. Too bad the Few closed down.

Agreed. My sz. 40" Toyo/sugar cane wool jacket fits like a true 44" maybe even a slim 46"

 

[Aloysius]

For clarification, I said ‘Shinki side’ because that side is currently obsessed with Shinki but it applies to that kind of leather/brand fixation in general. I think @red devil ’s “prestige” label works just as well but it’s less funny.

Agreed. My sz. 40" Toyo/sugar cane wool jacket fits like a true 44" maybe even a slim 46"
View attachment 409846

Toyo follows the fit of the vintage American originals they’re replicating unless labeled otherwise.

 

[red devil]

For clarification, I said ‘Shinki side’ because that side is currently obsessed with Shinki but it applies to that kind of leather/brand fixation in general. I think @red devil ’s “prestige” label works just as well but it’s less funny.



Toyo follows the fit of the vintage American originals they’re replicating unless labeled otherwise.

Sorry for breaking your joke lol

 

[Blackadder]

Actually, there are some vintage leather jackets or vintage clothing with reverse vanity sizing. One example is the 60s Beck 666. I learned that the hard way having bought a size 38 which turns out to be barely a size 36. There is a size 42 on ebay now and you can see the pit to pit is less than 21 inches. Admittedly, it is not as bad as FCL. More like RM.

 

[Superfluous]

Off topic: Do we still exalt Shinki at all? Yes they produce nice hh leathers. So do Italian tanneries.

I continue to exalt Shinki simply because it is a high quality HH that hits my personal sweet spot in terms of weight, pliability, and drape. That said, Shinki has not cornered the market on high quality HH. To the contrary, there are many outstanding HHs, including from Italian tanneries. However, subjective preferences in terms of weight, pliability, and drape render many high quality HHs undesirable for me, personally.

 

[Superfluous]

I think the reason is that unlike most Freewheelers jackets, the Mulholland is boxy and quite poor-fitting. I really like Freewheelers and can easily strap on any jacket and have it fit great but when I tried on a Mulholland I immediately took it off and wondered what all the fuss is about. Plus, I really dislike those spread collars. Thumbs down.

My experience is very different. The Mulholland is the one and only FW leather jacket that fits me well. Boxy it is not. To the contrary, the taper is so severe that it hugs my waist tighter than any other leather jacket I own. From what I have read, the problem many have with the Mulholland is sleeve length. Apparently, the sleeve length varied during certain years. I was lucky to purchase one with longer sleeves; and, even then, the sleeves are barely long enough.

 

[Superfluous]

I would change the general groups in "prestige" and " functional"

I have been accused of misreading posts and unjustifiably criticizing the poster based on my misinterpretation. Therefore, I will endeavor to navigate the foregoing comment more deftly.

The notion of a "prestige" group on TFL strikes me as transparently pejorative. Am I mistaken? What am I missing?

When referencing a "prestige" group, are you implying that certain people here on TFL purchase jackets based primarily on the "prestige" purportedly associated with the jacket, as opposed to quality and other more appropriate considerations? If not, please explain what you mean by your suggestion that there is discernable group on TFL that you suggest labeling the "prestige" group.

What are the shared characteristics of those TFL members in your so-called "prestige" group? How do you discern who belongs in the "prestige" group?

How do you distinguish people in the "prestige" group from people in the "functional" group that you concurrently suggested?

How does one distinguish between someone motivated by quality and someone motivated by "prestige"? How do you get inside their head and discern their motivations?

When you purchased jackets from well known and respected manufacturers, were you motivated by the "prestige" associated with those manufacturers? Or, were you motivated by the quality associated with those manufacturers?

I will defer criticism of your suggested "prestige" group until I better understand your post, so as to ensure that my response is not predicated on a misinterpretation.

 

[Marc mndt]

I continue to exalt Shinki simply because it is a high quality HH that hits my personal sweet spot in terms of weight, pliability, and drape.

I don't think that the term 'Shinki leather' (Shinki is the name of a tannery which produces different kinds of leathers. Some high quality, some not so high e.g. their shell cordovan) is indicative of any particular quality attribute but it certainly isn't indicative of weight. A full aniline Shinki leather will be heavier than a pigment dyed one of the same thickness. A 2mm hide will be heavier than the exact same hide that's skived down to 1.5mm.

Also, pliability and drape differ from one (Shinki) hide to another. I've handled a handful of FW HH jackets and they were all quite stiff (much stiffer than any Thedi HH jacket I've handled). Those FW jackets had great color depth and lustre though. The FCL HH jackets I've handled were much more pliable than the ones from FW but truth be told they looked matte and dull.

I'm not saying that Shinki doesn't produce high quality horsehides: The full aniline black 'naked' HH and the full aniline brown pigment dyed pony HH Field Leathers uses are two of the nicest leathers I've ever handled. My point is that 'Shinki leather' as a term isn't indicative of anything except for the place where the hides were processed. For that reason I think it's fair to say that 'Shinki leather' is nothing more than a buzzword and marketing tool if it's used by jacket makers in order to praise the quality of their product.

 

[Monitor]

I don't think that the term 'Shinki leather' (Shinki is the name of a tannery which produces different kinds of leathers. Some high quality, some not so high e.g. their shell cordovan) is indicative of any particular quality attribute but it certainly isn't indicative of weight. A full aniline Shinki leather will be heavier than a pigment dyed one of the same thickness. A 2mm hide will be heavier than the exact same hide that's skived down to 1.5mm.

Also, pliability and drape differ from one (Shinki) hide to another. I've handled a handful of FW HH jackets and they were all quite stiff (much stiffer than any Thedi HH jacket I've handled). Those FW jackets had great color depth and lustre though. The FCL HH jackets I've handled were much more pliable than the ones from FW but truth be told they looked matte and dull.

I'm not saying that Shinki doesn't produce high quality horsehides: The full aniline black 'naked' HH and the full aniline brown pigment dyed pony HH Field Leathers uses are two of the nicest leathers I've ever handled. My point is that 'Shinki leather' as a term isn't indicative of anything except for the place where the hides were processed. For that reason I think it's fair to say that 'Shinki leather' is nothing more than a buzzword and marketing tool if it's used by jacket makers in order to praise the quality of their product.

That 100%. It's literally like saying "Ford cars are the best!".

 

[red devil]

I have been accused of misreading posts and unjustifiably criticizing the poster based on my misinterpretation. Therefore, I will endeavor to navigate the foregoing comment more deftly.

The notion of a "prestige" group on TFL strikes me as transparently pejorative. Am I mistaken? What am I missing?

When referencing a "prestige" group, are you implying that certain people here on TFL purchase jackets based primarily on the "prestige" purportedly associated with the jacket, as opposed to quality and other more appropriate considerations? If not, please explain what you mean by your suggestion that there is discernable group on TFL that you suggest labeling the "prestige" group.

What are the shared characteristics of those TFL members in your so-called "prestige" group? How do you discern who belongs in the "prestige" group?

How do you distinguish people in the "prestige" group from people in the "functional" group that you concurrently suggested?

How does one distinguish between someone motivated by quality and someone motivated by "prestige"? How do you get inside their head and discern their motivations?

When you purchased jackets from well known and respected manufacturers, were you motivated by the "prestige" associated with those manufacturers? Or, were you motivated by the quality associated with those manufacturers?

I will defer criticism of your suggested "prestige" group until I better understand your post, so as to ensure that my response is not predicated on a misinterpretation.

It is always better to discuss of course

These thoughts you quoted came from reading what @Aloysius wrote earlier, didn't think too much about it, but in any case, let's start with "prestige", it can be interpreted in many ways both positive and negative. For example, last ski holidays I went to had "prestige" ski boots rentals of which designed harder boots, In this instance it is a positive denomination.

In the context of TFL, it refers to people prioritising the brand cachet over other considerations. For them the brand trumps everything else but also means quality by default.

Functional refers to people who just want a jacket for its intended use. They don't care as much about who made it or why, they just want something that feels good and does the job.

You forgot the "passionate" label, which I think is pretty straightforward. Although different people are passionate by different aspects.

That being said categorising people or objects is delicate exercise that often ends in futility.

But let me be direct here, I don't think I need to say it but just in case you do know that I respect you.

Why do you feel targeted? Why do you feel as if you were being labeled in the "prestige" group?

Same as categorising is a difficult exercise, you cannot lump all patrons of a brand with the same label either. We buy from a specific brand for different reasons, and I am sure you know that. Take FCL for example, that brand is generally disliked here, yet most people think that you got a good jacket out of them. If you were just looking for the brand, you would not have taken so long to choose a jacket from them.

I continue to exalt Shinki simply because it is a high quality HH that hits my personal sweet spot in terms of weight, pliability, and drape.

That comment gives the impression that you like Shinki for being Shinki. But knowing you, I am confident you know how variable Shinki is, and you mean to say the specific hides in your jacket.

You are very specific in terms of fit, design and all other characteristics in your jackets... that sounds more "passionate" to me.

Although you are suffocating your passion because you still do not have a crosszip!!! lol

I think you need to select a maker, go personally check the hide you want to be used and finally get one!

Edit: fixed a few things

And forgot to add, try a new maker for the crosszip

 

[ton312]

I think it's even more simple than that. I think we can all put ourselves into the passionate category. Wouldn't have an account here if you weren't. Some people like to pioneer, new (or old) brands, materials, styles, etc, etc. Others prefer sticking with what they know works best for them. No guessing with fit or materials/construction.

I like to pioneer b/c I become easily bored otherwise. I have pretty much exhausted the ability to be impressed by anything new. Unless of course it's something unexpected. There's not much of that going around because most makers have set high standards from the onset, unlike say 5 Star, that had to muddle their way through bad leather and bad design. This is also why I returned to my original pursuit, vintage jackets, as they can often be surprissing as well as interesting in the context of history. I would also add that collecting vintage jackets is far more frustrating and often disappointing. But when you hit, far more enjoyable (at least for me) otherwise I’d still own a dozen or more Aeros, Vanson and an LW or two.

Of course this means I've wasted lots of money. Although I wonder if it's a waste or just the cost of the ticket to ride. I honestly like the ride more than product. Neither camp deserves a badge of superiority or “prestige” over the other. It’s simply a different way to go about your own personalized mens outerwear experiment. We all appreciate a beautiful fit, regardless of maker, material or what have you. Fit is the primary tenet, I believe we all hold sacred.

Both camps enjoy sharing their discoveries, which is the most valuable attribute of this community.

P.S.-I bristle everytime this thread gets bumped. Seeing the title is a sore reminder that, while I have reigned in my tendancy to be an asshole as I've grown older, I am not out of the woods yet.

 

[El Marro]

My point is that 'Shinki leather' as a term isn't indicative of anything except for the place where the hides were processed.

This is a good point and one that took me awhile to grasp even as I acquired jackets made from Shinki horsehide. At this point I have six jackets made of Shinki leather and they run the gamut from exceptional color and grain down to flat and boring.

 

[handymike]

I hold a special place for my 1 custom Shinki jacket, but I will also admit that I specified the leather believing at the time that it was the “best.” Since then, I have come to appreciate all kinds of other hides- part of my journey. I really like my LL Rutland sheep, and I also love 1960s steer/cow. I tend to go for design over leather type these days as long as it's not CXL or totally crappy, so I don’t really know which group I’d belong to (if any) since I've only worn a leather jacket 2-3 times this year.

 

[Will Zach]

P.S.-I bristle everytime this thread gets bumped. Seeing the title is a sore reminder that, while I have reigned in my tendancy to be an asshole as I've grown older, I am not out of the woods yet.

Can't the mods change the title to cringe-worthy or something? A lot of us commit brain farts (I am a bit like you; this great forum has greatly reduced my tendency to be an asshole online, but it certainly rears its ugly head once in a while).

 

[ton312]

I hold a special place for my 1 custom Shinki jacket, but I will also admit that I specified the leather believing at the time that it was the “best.” Since then, I have come to appreciate all kinds of other hides- part of my journey. I really like my LL Rutland sheep, and I also love 1960s steer/cow. I tend to go for design over leather type these days as long as it's not CXL or totally crappy, so I don’t really know which group I’d belong to (if any) since I've only worn a leather jacket 2-3 times this year.

With the rug coat you can only be but one thing….PIONEER.

 

[Superfluous]

The above-comments about "Shinki" leather are well taken. Referring to "Shinki" leather is arguably no different than referring to "Horween" or "Victoria" leather. Moreover, my observation about weight and pliability is not consistently accurate. My first few jackets made from Shinki HH (from Himel and RMC) were all similar in weight and pliability, and this was the predicate for my exaltation of Shinki HH. However, my RMC Steinbeck and FW Mulholland have a substantially different Shinki HH that is much heavier. My FCL Tyler also uses a different Shinki HH that is different finish/color-wise. Thus, it is absolutely true that Shinki produces many different HHs of varying characteristics. I favor a certain subset of the Shinki hides more than the others.

@red devil I am not aware of anyone here on TFL that purchases jackets based on the cache associated with the brand. It is certainly possible, but my impression is that people here purchase jackets based on factors other than brand cache. Ironically, the brands we discuss here are completely unknown to the general public (with the possible exception of Schott) and, therefore, the pursuit of brand cache is a rather futile exercise in relationship to these brands (at least beyond the walls of TFL). I suspect brand cache may be a more common consideration for those purchasing mainstream designer brands.

@red devil I tried on an extraordinarily good fitting TFL cross-zip. Ain't happening. I do not like the extra material across the chest when the jacket is unzipped. Moreover, it projects an image that I cannot otherwise fulfil -- in other words, I am not nearly cool enough to wear a cross-zip as intended -- me wearing a cross-zip is the functional equivalent of a morbidly obese woman wearing a bikini.