A-2s in RAF service

[Smithy]

There's been quite a bit of discussion of A-2s going on here of late and I thought that I'd post these as they may be of real interest to the A-2 fans.

Whilst generally incidences of RAF personnel wearing A-2s were very rare, most people don't know that for the two Norwegian fighter squadrons of the RAF (331 and 332) A-2s were standard issue equipment. It is to my knowledge the only example of A-2 wearing at unit level and not merely isolated incidences of individual pilots wearing A-2s that they had traded or won in card games.

Both these images are of 332 squadron members from Svein Heglund's fantastic autobiography "H??k over H??k". You'll also notice that one of the pilots has painted the 332 crest onto his jacket and this was quite common among this squadron.

Just thought that I would share this little known example of A-2 wearing in the RAF...

 

[Jacob Dubow]

Hi Smithy,

Thats great information about the Norwegian fighter pilots and the fact a number of them wore A-2's. I love it when new facts like this pop up. Also, thanks for the photos.

I noticed that the horsehide appears to be relatively thin and wrinkles up easily----this is something I have noticed in other photos of wartime A-2's. Many of todays repros, seem to be thicker leather that takes longer to break in.

 

[Zemke Fan]

I will bet you anything that Walt Disney Studios...

Designed the Squadron's insignia!

 

[Smithy]

Designed the Squadron's insignia!

Actually I made a slight mistake the first photo is 332 and the second is 331 members.

The crest you see in the background was actually designed by a 331 member (Ulf Wormdal) but was rejected by the RAF. 331 eventually ended up with a more traditional RAF design...

By the way I don't really know much about A-2s, so what colour are these ones in the photos I posted above?

 

[Jacob Dubow]

I would say that the A-2's in the outdoor photo are a lighter caramel brown to medium russet brown color. If you look at the pilot on the far left, he has dark brown hair. His A-2 is noticeably lighter in color than his hair is. All the A-2's in this photo are a light to medium brown russet.

In the other photo, the pilot on the rear left has a somewhat darker brown leather while the guy on the front left is medium russet. It is always a bit of a guessing game when looking at a black and white photo, though.

 

[Smithy]

Thanks Jacob!

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

I would say that the A-2's in the outdoor photo are a lighter caramel brown to medium russet brown color. If you look at the pilot on the far left, he has dark brown hair. His A-2 is noticeably lighter in color than his hair is. All the A-2's in this photo are a light to medium brown russet.

In the other photo, the pilot on the rear left has a somewhat darker brown leather while the guy on the front left is medium russet. It is always a bit of a guessing game when looking at a black and white photo, though.

I would concur, as most early issue jackets were actually russet brown, which I heard was actually a mistake. Something to do with the dyeing tanks oxidizing,(rusting?) to produce that color. Later on A2s were produced in seal brown as was originally intended, and re-issued russet jackets were sprayed the darker color. Or maybe the army changed over to the dark seal brown later on for all leather items?,... as I have also seen holsters that were re-dyed the darker brown also.
Interesting to see these particular pilots were issued A2s. Were other nationalities that escaped the Nazis to fly for the RAF issued A2s?

 

[Smithy]

Interesting to see these particular pilots were issued A2s. Were other nationalities that escaped the Nazis to fly for the RAF issued A2s?

Not that I have seen Nick. From what I have seen the Norwegians were the only ones. I also have pictures of Norwegians training at "Little Norway" in Canada and many are wearing A-2s so I imagine that the jackets were issued there whilst in training.

 

[greyhound68]

I can see talon zippers on two of the jackets in the top photos. Hard to tell which model they are as you can't see details like pockets or whether they have collar stands or not.

 

[JRaptor]

Wrinkly Hides

I noticed that the horsehide appears to be relatively thin and wrinkles up easily----this is something I have noticed in other photos of wartime A-2's. Many of todays repros, seem to be thicker leather that takes longer to break in.

I am probably stepping in a brier patch here but I think cowhide was used allot more in the construction of A-2's than most of us care to believe.... especially in mid to late wartime example's!

"But then again, that’s just me."

 

[Spitfire]

Thanks for a very interesting post, Smithy.
fftopic: Any danes in the norwegian squadrons? As far as I remember a couple of danes served there, right.

 

[Smithy]

Thanks for a very interesting post, Smithy.
fftopic: Any danes in the norwegian squadrons? As far as I remember a couple of danes served there, right.

There's a few Spitfire. The most famous is Kaj Birksted who became the highest scoring Danish ace who you'll no doubt be aware of.

The other two who made victory claims are Kjeld Rønhof and Arne Langhoff Bøge.

There are quite a few others and unfortunately amongst these 19 were killed and 3 taken prisoner.

 

[aswatland]

Hi Smithy,

Thats great information about the Norwegian fighter pilots and the fact a number of them wore A-2's. I love it when new facts like this pop up. Also, thanks for the photos.

I noticed that the horsehide appears to be relatively thin and wrinkles up easily----this is something I have noticed in other photos of wartime A-2's. Many of todays repros, seem to be thicker leather that takes longer to break in.

From my experience the pre-war A2s I have owned such as the RW 1401 have thiner hide then later ones such as the United Sheeplined. But even then hides on the same contract varied in thickness!

 

[Alan Eardley]

Please!

I am probably stepping in a brier patch here but I think cowhide was used allot more in the construction of A-2's than most of us care to believe.... especially in mid to late wartime example's!

Please don't let us begin this sterile, fruitless debate on this forum. This topic, and others like it, have been the bane of at least two other jacket forums from which a number of us have fled.

Alan

 

[JRaptor]

Please don't let us begin this sterile, fruitless debate on this forum. This topic, and others like it, have been the bane of at least two other jacket forums from which a number of us have fled.

Alan

Hey, that is just my opinion.... take it or leave it....

 

[Alan Eardley]

Opinions

JRaptor,

I have no problem with that opinion, in fact I share it. The problem is, without facts or records I think it is it is impossible to prove or disprove. I once stated that, since certain A-2 contractors were known (from their catalogues) to sell cheaper steerhide jackets alongside their own civilian horsehide range, it is at least possible that they used steerhide to make A-2s either by accident or out of deceit. Phew!!! Did the fundamentalists come out of the woodwork at that one...

This is like debating about religion. Beliefs, not facts.

Alan

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Please don't let us begin this sterile, fruitless debate on this forum. This topic, and others like it, have been the bane of at least two other jacket forums from which a number of us have fled.

Alan

I concur! Thickness or thinness of A2 hide has nothing to do with what animal it came from.
HD

 

[JRaptor]

JRaptor,

I have no problem with that opinion, in fact I share it. The problem is, without facts or records I think it is it is impossible to prove or disprove. I once stated that, since certain A-2 contractors were known (from their catalogues) to sell cheaper steerhide jackets alongside there own civilian horsehide range, it is at least possible that they used steerhide to make A-2s either by accident or out of deceit. Phew!!! Did the fundamentalists come out of the woodwork at that one...

This is like debating about religion. Beliefs, not facts.

Alan

Yah, I guess you are right about that, but if you share my belief along with a few other people I know (not going to mention any names) that are considered by many to be the top dogs in the study of original A-2's then I guess we can be happy in our beliefs that some A-2's where most definitely made with cowhide.

 

[JRaptor]

I concur! Thickness or thinness of A2 hide has nothing to do with what animal it came from.
HD

I didn’t say anything about thickness or thinness! I was talking about wrinkles and the grain of the hide.

As I said, it is just my opinion and belief… take it or leave it!

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Wrinkles and grain of hide? So that determines cowhide?? This is an old arguement as Alan stated. You needn't mention names of your top dogs. Some of us are very familiar with their names and organization of origin. It has become a cult of A2 genius for some. Maybe and speculation has miraculously become: "Some A2s were most definately made with cowhide".
Many TopDog collectors and A2 jacket history buffs have never reached that conclusion at all. It always begs the exclamation..show me one!:eusa_doh:
HD
I only post this to reveal the fact that cowhide has never been "proven" to have been used as WW2 A2 hide.