A-2 seam question

[2jakes]

The "sleeve seam" which is not top-stitched is aligned with the body side
seam , as in this Cable jacket:

Alternatively, some makers constructed their jackets with an "inset sleeve"
where the seam is rotated from the body side, as in this Monarch:

What is the significance of these two different constructions ?
This would help me to better understand when I decide to
place my order. Thanks.

 

[Jaguar66]

The "sleeve seam" which is not top-stitched is aligned with the body side
seam , as in this Cable jacket:

Alternatively, some makers constructed their jackets with an "inset sleeve"
where the seam is rotated from the body side, as in this Monarch:

What is the significance of these two different constructions ?
This would help me to better understand when I decide to
place my order. Thanks.

This is a discussion I copied and pasted from the Vintage Leather Jacket site. By DiamondDave

Dumbed down...

Inset sleeve is made, when a "vest" is made, and then the sleeve is "inset" into said vest. This is more difficult in some ways (ie Top stitching around the arm-hole), and simpler in others. It also requires that the seamer, "works in a hole" when attaching the sleeve.

Conversely, a simple sleeve is attached with the body of the jacket only sewn together at the shoulder (side seam stil open), as well as the sleeve open on the underside, or "thumb seam". Then sleeve is attached "flat" as it were.... this allows for much simpler top-stitching of the sleeve hole prior to closing the jacket. The inset sleeve is normally a much more comfortable sleeve, as the "rolled" sleeve that you mentioned in your posting actually mimics the body shape of most people. This latter does cause some of its own challenges as well. This includes a large "bunching" at the side seam, due to the fact that the layers of ALL of the pieces meet in this area and can be difficult, at best.

You can easily see the difference in these, if the "thumb seam" and the side seam, meet up under the arm. It is a simple sleeve and the "inset" is obvious if these do not meet up and the "thumb seam" is clearly forward of the side seam.

Certain companies did this, more difficult inset, although it was not required by the Government at the time. It was however how most of them had always done it pre-war. and it is IMHO a more elegantly styled garment.

Hope this helps clear it up.

As far as I know, no one has explained to me at least, how an inset sleeve translates to a more comfortable fit.

 

[2jakes]

Thanks Jaguar66 ,

Reading the above , & I may be way off on this .
I'm thinking that the jacket with the inset sleeves
had less arm restriction , especially in a tight cockpit
where quick reaction was vital .

Which in essence made for a comfortable fit.
Others would point out that this jacket below
would be more comfortable in similar situations .

 

[Dr H]

2Jakes, I've posted on VLJF.

The choice configuration is a practical one - the inset/rotated seam (used by Doniger, amongst others) gives a more natural arms sleeve shape (slightly more curved) and more 'reach' in use. When you raise your arms ahead of you the jacket rides up less.
However, it is a more time consuming seam to produce (the construction is more complicated to align) and might have bedevilled a production line under pressure..
I should go the additional mile and read Gary's book to see whether the contract sizes bear out my assumption that this was more likely to have been used in small run contracts (e.g. Doniger, ca. 5,000) rather than larger (e.g. Perry, ca. 50,000) where the simpler, faster construction would win out.

 

[2jakes]

Thanks Dr H ....here & over @ VLJ....
This all is helping very much. I'll be ordering my first leather jacket
that is to be made to wartime standards & not a modern style. I'm very
active in sports which has made it possible for me to wear this style of
jackets from WW2.

 

[Dr H]

The inset/rotated sleeve does make the A-2 more comfortable to wear - the attachment to the sleeve is not quite so crude.
The Doniger example is a good one as the commercial arm of the company, McGregor, was selling widely and so the wartime jackets were made using high end manufacturing techniques/expertise.

 

[majormajor]

The ELC Monarch, with the inset, rotated sleeves, is a very comfortable jacket in a wartime fit.

 

[thor]

Thanks Jaguar66 ,

Reading the above , & I may be way off on this .
I'm thinking that the jacket with the inset sleeves
had less arm restriction , especially in a tight cockpit
where quick reaction was vital .

Which in essence made for a comfortable fit.
Others would point out that this jacket below
would be more comfortable in similar situations .

The tighter cockpit of a fighter plane made a form-fitting jacket more desirable while a larger, roomier cockpit like a bomber would lend itself to wearing a looser jacket for comfort on those long missions. Can anyone tell what kind of plane is in the photo of the Naval aviator? PBY perhaps?

 

[2jakes]

The tighter cockpit of a fighter plane made a form-fitting jacket more desirable while a larger, roomier cockpit like a bomber would lend itself to wearing a looser jacket for comfort on those long missions. Can anyone tell what kind of plane is in the photo of the Naval aviator? PBY perhaps?

LIFE magazine... Torpedo Bomber,Training, WWII
​Ensign W.V.A. Wilson, December 1942

from: navypilotoverseas.wordpress.com/

Nice images of originals on this site.

 

[thor]

LIFE magazine... Torpedo Bomber,Training, WWII
​Ensign W.V.A. Wilson, December 1942

from: navypilotoverseas.wordpress.com/

Nice images of originals on this site.

Ah, thank you 2jakes! Great pics!

 

[Foster]

I asked my wife for some explanation, she is a pattern drafter.
The inset sleeve seam is the way to properly make a jacket, as human arms have a natural slant/ rotation to the front and also move forward frequently, but not usually move backward.
The method of construction with the sleeve seam inline with the side seam of the body is faster and easier to make, but does not fit as well because our arms do not stay flat out to the sides (or as she said it, we're not cardboard cut-out shapes). This type of seam is often done in children's clothing because it is easier to make and in smaller sizes it is not always possible to make a proper inset seam. Also athletic wear like sweatshirts are made in this fashion, but the more flexible fabrics are more comfortable and forgiving than something stiff like leather.
The proper inset sleeve is made where each sleeve is attached to the body of the jacket. It requires more skill and also more time. The sleeve must be aligned and positioned, and with leather if there is a mistake when sewing it may not be possible to redo it easily. Redoing it would probably make the sleeve shorter and the armhole larger so as not to be sewing on the same line of stitching which would make that seam very weak since the arms take much of the structural stress of the garment when worn/used.

 

[Sloan1874]

I just checked my LHB, and sure enough, the seam is inset.

 

[2jakes]

I checked my RLP type A-2 leather jacket . Has the "inset sleeves" plus
single or one piece back & no side entry pockets. I'm impressed for a "mall jacket".
Very comfortable for a military style . Though I don't believe all of his jackets have
these features like this one. Some may point out that it's not in the same league as
the specialty custom ones but it's fine for now while I wait...& wait..& wait..for
my order...

 

[Foster]

Goodwears come to those who wait?

 

[thor]

Goodwears come to those who wait?

funny! You made my day with that one!

 

[Sloan1874]

This is my favourite type of thread, the ones where I learn stuff!

 

[Peacoat]

LIFE magazine... Torpedo Bomber,Training, WWII
​Ensign W.V.A. Wilson, December 1942

from: navypilotoverseas.wordpress.com/

Aaha, a mistake in the caption. The officer pictured above is not an Ensign, but is a Lieutenant, assuming he is a Naval officer. Also the picture is captioned, "Torpedo Bomber Training . . . ." Doesn't appear to be too much torpedo damage in the picture. Looks like dry land with camouflage netting.

 

[Fanch]

Wearing a G-1, he could also be a captain in the USMC. Or he could be any O3 commissioned officer simply wearing a G-1.

 

[Peacoat]

Wearing a G-1, he could also be a captain in the USMC. Or he could be any O3 commissioned officer simply wearing a G-1.

Correct, he could be any of those, but the caption called him an Ensign. Of all the things he could be, an Ensign is not one of them.

 

[thor]

Correct, he could be any of those, but the caption called him an Ensign. Of all the things he could be, an Ensign is not one of them.

The original photo came from navypilotoverseas@worldpress and in the photo just before it, there is a Navy Ensign (aviator) in a G-1 posing by the wing of his torpedo plane. The caption was just assigned to the wrong photo on their website, that's all.