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A-2, part two. Time to go shopping.

Big J

Call Me a Cab
Messages
2,961
Location
Japan
There might have been plenty of draft horses in Indiana but in a lot of places mules were more commonly used as farm implements. My guess is plenty of those horsehide A2's were actually mule hides back then but mule hide doesn't sound quite as upscale as horsehide even if they're both identical except for two molecules.

No, I'm pretty sure it was real horse, not mule. Pre-war the contracts for AAF jackets were relatively small because the peacetime AAF was small. The demand for horse hide to meet these contracts could most likely have been met through the number of horses that the Army* owned dying of old age and illness.

*The US Army in the pre-war years had still not really made much progress towards mechanization**, and the structures were all still in place for the Army to go to war with large numbers of horses to move equipment, supplies, and artillery.

When the US entered the war, two things happened;
1. Massive expansion of all branches of the service, and,
2. Budgets were increased to allow for an immediate conversion to a mechanized 'modern' army.

This meant that the Army could sell or slaughter all of it's horses for their hides (as well as meat they could sell for dog food, and bones they could sell for glue), and the hides could be supplied at zero cost (since the Army already owned them) to contractors to make A-2's for all the new recruits pouring into the AAFs. In addition, the sudden drop to zero of the Army's procurement of horses also served to undermine the market value of horses meaning that as the war continued, the AAF contractors were able to source horse hide on the open market at relatively low prices.

However, this collapse of the US domestic work-horse breeding industry meant that horses quickly became unavailable, as did their hides in sufficient quantities, and the market values of horse hides started to climb. This is when 'Hap' Arnold decided to cancel the A-2 and replace it with a cloth jacket.

**The German army was the most mechanized army in the world at the start of WWII, and yet, the vast majority of their troops marched on foot or travelled by train and had supplies drawn by horse for the first two years of the war, with only a proportionately very small number of units having tanks and mechanized troop transports and supply trucks during all of the famous 'Blitzkrieg' campaigns.
 
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dudewuttheheck

I'll Lock Up
Messages
4,422
Where di you try it on? New jacket?



I don't know about DD, but Flat Head Shinki is definitely different that RMC or GW Shinki.

My DD jacket that I have now sold is certainly thicker/stiffer than the stuff I have on the A2 from Big J. However, The Flat Head Shinki is fairly similar, but even stiffer than what DD used. I'll have to see what the leather is like on my new A2 when I get it next week.
 

Roma

A-List Customer
Messages
382
Location
Moscow
My favorite A-2 is a russet jerky MWHH Aero Bronco. If I were starting from scratch, I would go with an Aero A-2 made from russet Vinenza HH. That said, Aero's veg tanned goatskin is also fantastic, at least based on my black goatskin Maxwell and brown goatskin Pioneer.

View attachment 36924
As always Fanch, fantastic A2.
 

Roma

A-List Customer
Messages
382
Location
Moscow
I ordered my first A2 in the beginning of August from Aero. The leather I'd chosen was Dark seal Vecenza and Aero got the supply only 3 weeks ago but promised they would ship my jacket out in the mid of October but they haven't done so yet. I hope I did a good choice but can't tell my personal opinion so far.

Отправлено с моего SM-N920C через Tapatalk
 

Carlos840

I'll Lock Up
Messages
4,944
Location
London
No, I'm pretty sure it was real horse, not mule. Pre-war the contracts for AAF jackets were relatively small because the peacetime AAF was small. The demand for horse hide to meet these contracts could most likely have been met through the number of horses that the Army* owned dying of old age and illness.

*The US Army in the pre-war years had still not really made much progress towards mechanization**, and the structures were all still in place for the Army to go to war with large numbers of horses to move equipment, supplies, and artillery.

When the US entered the war, two things happened;
1. Massive expansion of all branches of the service, and,
2. Budgets were increased to allow for an immediate conversion to a mechanized 'modern' army.

This meant that the Army could sell or slaughter all of it's horses for their hides (as well as meat they could sell for dog food, and bones they could sell for glue), and the hides could be supplied at zero cost (since the Army already owned them) to contractors to make A-2's for all the new recruits pouring into the AAFs. In addition, the sudden drop to zero of the Army's procurement of horses also served to undermine the market value of horses meaning that as the war continued, the AAF contractors were able to source horse hide on the open market at relatively low prices.

However, this collapse of the US domestic work-horse breeding industry meant that horses quickly became unavailable, as did their hides in sufficient quantities, and the market values of horse hides started to climb. This is when 'Hap' Arnold decided to cancel the A-2 and replace it with a cloth jacket.

**The German army was the most mechanized army in the world at the start of WWII, and yet, the vast majority of their troops marched on foot or travelled by train and had supplies drawn by horse for the first two years of the war, with only a proportionately very small number of units having tanks and mechanized troop transports and supply trucks during all of the famous 'Blitzkrieg' campaigns.

It's also helpful to remember that the number of cars on the road only surpassed the number of horse pulled carriages around 1910. Before that, traveling, field work, all of it was done mostly by horse.
The great depression in the 30s really boosted the use of horses again as most people couldn't afford anything else.
It's really in the 40s that horses became "useless" as motor vehicles took over, there were a lot of horses and nothing to do with them.
This is probably one of the reasons that it was used by the army, high supply, low demand, low price...
 

Big J

Call Me a Cab
Messages
2,961
Location
Japan
It's also helpful to remember that the number of cars on the road only surpassed the number of horse pulled carriages around 1910. Before that, traveling, field work, all of it was done mostly by horse.
The great depression in the 30s really boosted the use of horses again as most people couldn't afford anything else.
It's really in the 40s that horses became "useless" as motor vehicles took over, there were a lot of horses and nothing to do with them.
This is probably one of the reasons that it was used by the army, high supply, low demand, low price...

For real. This is probably why tanneries are sourcing their horse from eastern european countries that still don't enjoy western standards of living and mechanization.
 

Banzai

Familiar Face
Messages
94
Location
United States
My only point was that I think it's funny that we pay a premium for a hide that the Army sourced because it was cheap. The Navy made the quality purchase, which we don't favor because it's not historically accurate, and because it's now cheaper, which we perceive as less quality.

I think the owners of the original A-2s might have preferred goat.

Just speculation.
 

Carlos840

I'll Lock Up
Messages
4,944
Location
London
My only point was that I think it's funny that we pay a premium for a hide that the Army sourced because it was cheap. The Navy made the quality purchase, which we don't favor because it's not historically accurate, and because it's now cheaper, which we perceive as less quality.

I think the owners of the original A-2s might have preferred goat.

Just speculation.


I think it's all personal, i like horse because of the grain and the way it ages. IMO goat doesn't have much character and doesn't show much aging.
If you want your jacket to look new forever, goat is a good idea. If you want your jacket to look beat up, horse is a good choice.
To me, cow/steer is somewhat in between when talking about how it shows its age.

Whatever you decide about your new jacket, don't forget that sleeve width at the bicep has a huge impact when it come to forward reach.
Also, in my experience leather jackets won't stretch much in these areas.
Yes it will stretch somewhat at the elbows and high tension areas, but if you can't put your arms forward when the jacket is new, odds are you won't be able to put your arms forward after 6 months.
 

bn1966

My Mail is Forwarded Here
Messages
3,111
Location
UK
"Horses for courses"

I must say my ELC HH A-2 is light & tough (very worn looking too) , very wearable most of the year here in the UK.

I have recently purchased an ELC A-1 (capeskin) that is very light & almost like a thin cardigan on..great for milder weather. I haven't had any problems with the buttons & an A-1 makes for a slightly different jacket option (see pic)

I had a ELC Goatskin M-422A (see pic) but couldn't get on with it. Whilst I appreciated the water repellent properties, it was thick and heavy leather & too much in milder weather..when it gets colder here I have shearlings that are better suited for my purposes (D-1 currently seeing some use & an Irvin on stand by).

Currently looking to have a G-1 made based on my original Star Sportswear jacket (see pic), Wested leather are going to make it for me. Won't be 100% accurate but hopefully a good wearer that won't bust the Bank or upset the wife. Thinking Goat at the moment but we'll see when I view the hide options.
 

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XpucTocBockpec

New in Town
Messages
15
Location
Germany, Heilbronn
Roma I have ordered my first Aero A-2 (Bronco, russet, customised 44 Size) in the middle August in Horween. I have got the jacket in the middle September. The sleevs are to long, I know, but I`m happy and can live with it.




P.S Sorry for my english.
З.Ы Рома, отличный выбор. Ты не будешь разочарован. Куртофаны у Аеро просто супер..
 
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Roma

A-List Customer
Messages
382
Location
Moscow
Roma I have ordered my first Aero A-2 (Bronco, russet, customised 44 Size) in the middle August in Horween. I have got the jacket in the middle September. The sleevs are to long, I know, but I`m happy and can live with it.


P.S Sorry for my english.
З.Ы Рома, отличный выбор. Ты не будешь разочарован. Куртофаны у Аеро просто супер..
Great choice, not that your sleeves look too long, they're pretty fine. Great-looking jacket, congrats.

P.S. спасибо, жду не дождусь, но пока даже на письмо не отвечают уже несколько дней.
 

XpucTocBockpec

New in Town
Messages
15
Location
Germany, Heilbronn
P.S. спасибо, жду не дождусь, но пока даже на письмо не отвечают уже несколько дней.
Thanks. No answer from AERO Support in few days is normal. You must be patient, he-he..

P.S Если не отвечают неделю, то пишите еще раз. У меня тоже так было, просто бабенка на саппорте (Holly) может пропустить емайл. После повторного письма она очнулась и все снова закрутилось. Хотя, если ты уже заказал куртку( и получил номер заказа и все такое на мыло), то ничего больше приходить не должно. Следующая весточка о них будет о том, что куртка выслана.
 

Roma

A-List Customer
Messages
382
Location
Moscow
Thanks. No answer from AERO Support in few days is normal. You must be patient, he-he..

P.S Если не отвечают неделю, то пишите еще раз. У меня тоже так было, просто бабенка на саппорте (Holly) может пропустить емайл. После повторного письма она очнулась и все снова закрутилось. Хотя, если ты уже заказал куртку( и получил номер заказа и все такое на мыло), то ничего больше приходить не должно. Следующая весточка о них будет о том, что куртка выслана.
Got it! Thanks.
 

nick123

I'll Lock Up
Messages
6,371
Location
California
Roma I have ordered my first Aero A-2 (Bronco, russet, customised 44 Size) in the middle August in Horween. I have got the jacket in the middle September. The sleevs are to long, I know, but I`m happy and can live with it.




P.S Sorry for my english.
З.Ы Рома, отличный выбор. Ты не будешь разочарован. Куртофаны у Аеро просто супер..

Fantastic.
 

Sloan1874

I'll Lock Up
Messages
8,427
Location
Glasgow
Thanks. No answer from AERO Support in few days is normal. You must be patient, he-he..

P.S Если не отвечают неделю, то пишите еще раз. У меня тоже так было, просто бабенка на саппорте (Holly) может пропустить емайл. После повторного письма она очнулась и все снова закрутилось. Хотя, если ты уже заказал куртку( и получил номер заказа и все такое на мыло), то ничего больше приходить не должно. Следующая весточка о них будет о том, что куртка выслана.

Никогда не слышал о Google Translate ? Я не думаю, что Холли был бы признателен называют девка . If you're going to post on here, have the good manners to post in the common language used.
 

Sloan1874

I'll Lock Up
Messages
8,427
Location
Glasgow
No, good manners is when you post on an open forum in the same language. If you want to PM, you need to post 15 times first.
 

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