A-2 colors

[Big J]

So, i get that there was a war on, and shortages, and all that, hence wartime issue A-2's come in a wide range of browns from very dark seal, to reddish brown, to more tan colors, but the A-2 contracts started before the war, when there weren't shortages, so why did they specify two colors; seal and russet (I don't know what the actual pre-war terms for those colors would have been).

Wouldn't it have been simpler to just choose one color?
In fact, wouldn't it have been easier to specify, say, black, and then not have to worry about all the different shades of brown being supplied?

 

[Bunyip]

Great question BigJ...my interest in a2 is a very new one. I've started to appreciate them a lot more....i will be very interested in the response. Mind you, I really dig the range of browns etc they came in...probably wouldn't appeal to
me in black...

 

[rocketeer]

I have had a few real ones and a few copies, mainly russet. All have been slightly different. I would like to guess that there was no solid colour for Seal or Russet, more like different shades of dark brown and medium. A bit like British Racing Green, no particular standard, just various shades within the darker green range.

 

[tonypaj]

I'm sure Andrew will explain this based on his research. My present day experience would simply suggest to cover the demand with enough supply. Thus also acceptance of different cuts and colours..

 

[Seb Lucas]

Maybe they were all simply intended to be brown - the variations being interpretations of that color.

 

[chamboid]

I can only imagine that when you are dealing with contacts on such a large scale that achieving a uniform colour across a contact of 20,000 jackets would be difficult, coming from different suppliers/ tanneries using different process', not always being the same leather must have been near impossible to achieve.

Beyond that the leather would all age differently over the past 70 years as well. Depending on climate and storage, if on unworn condition or not.

 

[Doctor Damage]

Remember that the U.S. military was much less unified in those days than today and procurement would have been a much less organized thing.

There are different shades of black, too.

 

[Doctor Damage]

Maybe they were all simply intended to be brown - the variations being interpretations of that color.

I'm sure amateur and professional historians will take us through a bunch of hoops to prove that the USAAF had some cunning plan in mind when they listed two different colours, but I'm sure the truth (probably now lost forever to us) will be banal. Building on your suggestion, I'd bet that in those days the garment industry considered seal and russet to be two different things but to the USAAF there was little material difference so they listed two colours instead of one to cover all the bases with the garment industry.

 

[Big J]

Maybe they were all simply intended to be brown - the variations being interpretations of that color.

Could be, but then they were handing out other uniforms in two colors; Pinks & Greens.

 

[Big J]

I'm sure Andrew will explain this based on his research. My present day experience would simply suggest to cover the demand with enough supply. Thus also acceptance of different cuts and colours..

Sure, but if it was a supply issue, couldn't they have just specified black? That's pretty objective compared to the browns.

 

[Justhandguns]

Could be, but then they were handing out other uniforms in two colors; Pinks & Greens.

The pink and green are more like theatre specific. There are more greens in Europe than in the Pacific. Maybe it was because of the weather? Even though they were still made of wool?

 

[tonypaj]

Sure, but if it was a supply issue, couldn't they have just specified black? That's pretty objective compared to the browns.

I guess so. Then again, I have dealt with these procurement issues and contracts for the last 25-30 years. I started with simple contracts such as these, and learned fast that the only thing that really mattered was operations. In my days at that level, it was refugee camps, I did not deal with wars (apart from the fact that refugee camps were caused by wars). The specifications were for guidance, what was more important for us was to get what we could (with a fair resemblance of what we wanted) to the people who needed the stuff.

These days, with the people I work with, we are seriously precise, but there is no emergency involved. If we are not precise, and then the contractors are not, be prepared to be swallowed by a black hole I do not deal with details any longer, just try to guide the people who do. With our stuff, we can not accept "seal instead of russet". Not a good example, really, as we would not accept anything else except exactly what was specified. But we live in a different age and we have different requirements.

Going back to A-2s, I reckon they did a good job back then, way better than the present US military, like with toilet seats...

 

[tropicalbob]

It's a good question. At the beginning of the war there was a Depression still on, plus America in the Thirties was largely isolationist: therefore the "Old Army" was at the bottom of Congress's expenditure list and was itself very small at the time. I also can't imagine that the generals gave a you=know-what about shades of brown, which had been the color of leather trim since at least Teddy Roosevelt's time.

 

[pawineguy]

Could be, but then they were handing out other uniforms in two colors; Pinks & Greens.

Pinks and Greens was the nickname for one particular uniform, (maybe you were joking) and that uniform wasn't handed out, it was made at a tailor following the color code given by the Army. My understanding was that the spec simply called for Seal Brown, and the variation was all over the map, just as it is now with Seal running a pretty wide range.

One of the interesting things about the US Army, and what may have contributed to this, is the lack of a uniform "tradition."

 

[Sloan1874]

Seal seems to travel from mid-to-dark brown all the way down to 'One-step-from-black'. Russets seem to be much more standardised from the examples I've seen.

 

[2jakes]

So, i get that there was a war on, and shortages, and all that, hence wartime issue A-2's come in a wide range of browns from very dark seal, to reddish brown, to more tan colors, but the A-2 contracts started before the war, when there weren't shortages, so why did they specify two colors; seal and russet (I don't know what the actual pre-war terms for those colors would have been).

Wouldn't it have been simpler to just choose one color?
In fact, wouldn't it have been easier to specify, say, black, and then not have to worry about all the different shades of brown being supplied?

The question is short & to the point.

The answer as far as I can tell, based on U.S. Army information is not.
I photo screened just a small sample .

Basically "they" were trying their best to supply as much as possible with what was
available from the leather manufacturers at the time. All in different "shades" of brown ! :eusa_doh:

NOTE: This link below took several minutes for me to download:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...vcG7t_v4akPTqGA&bvm=bv.94455598,d.aWw&cad=rjt

this is just my 2¢, the experts may have different opinions.

 

[aswatland]

So, i get that there was a war on, and shortages, and all that, hence wartime issue A-2's come in a wide range of browns from very dark seal, to reddish brown, to more tan colors, but the A-2 contracts started before the war, when there weren't shortages, so why did they specify two colors; seal and russet (I don't know what the actual pre-war terms for those colors would have been).

Wouldn't it have been simpler to just choose one color?
In fact, wouldn't it have been easier to specify, say, black, and then not have to worry about all the different shades of brown being supplied?

The original government specification stated that the A2 was to be made from seal brown horsehide. The actual colour was open to broad interpretation. Apart from the October 1941 Aero 21996 all pre-War A2s were made predominantly of russet leather, which passed AN inspections . Most of the leather was chrome tanned. A range of tanneries were used to fulfil contracts during the War and of course within a contract there are significant variations in the colour of the leather and the type of leather used. For example the jackets 50,000 jackets made by Dubow under their 27798 contract appear in shades from russet to a darker seal brown made with horse hide, goatskin and cowhide.

It may have been easier to dye all leather used to make A2s black to establish conformity, but I suspect that this wold have incurred more expense even in the early 1930s in producing what was essentially an aviator's work garment!

 

[nick123]

Here is the problem.

Seal:


Seal:

 

[HPA Rep]

Pinks and Greens was the nickname for one particular uniform, (maybe you were joking) and that uniform wasn't handed out, it was made at a tailor following the color code given by the Army. My understanding was that the spec simply called for Seal Brown, and the variation was all over the map, just as it is now with Seal running a pretty wide range.

One of the interesting things about the US Army, and what may have contributed to this, is the lack of a uniform "tradition."

Actually, "pinks and greens" weren't all made by tailors: the U. S. Army contracted for some officer uniform items, so there were contractor-made blouses and trousers, but an officer had to purchase these using his clothing allowance.

Most of the hodgepodge of A-2 coloration was a result of vast need outweighing uniformity among the larger contracts that began during the period of armaments buildup and through WWII (1940-44). The A-2 coloring of the 1930s wasn't so wildly apart as the aforementioned A-2s of the 1940s, with the smaller needs and contract sizes allowing for more uniformity.

If you read some of the correspondence from the 1940s regarding leather color, if becomes very clear that a typical dialogue would go something like this:

Colonel, these leather samples from Greenbaum and Chicago Tanning don't meet the adopted color spec. on file and both samples are quite different from each other.

General, that's true, sir, but we can have enough hides sent to J. A. Dubow to allow them to commence their contract for A-2 jackets in the next 30 days if we issue approval now.

Colonel, what's the supply situation with our other bidding tanneries?

General, the other contending bidders are saying it will be at least 3 months before they can produce more jacket leather due to contracts pending for shoe leather, and I cannot say we'd have any better results in getting the color matches without sufficient testing and sampling time added on in addition to the 3 months.

I don't like it, colonel. I've been in the army 27 years and we're supposed to wear uniforms. Do you understand what uniform means?

Yes, sir, I understand, but we can wait for what may be a better color match or get jackets in production very soon.

I know, colonel, I know, but it stinks. Okay, get the paperwork started and we'll take the hides we can get quickly.

 

[HPA Rep]

The original government specification stated that the A2 was to be made from seal brown horsehide. The actual colour was open to broad interpretation. Apart from the October 1941 Aero 21996 all pre-War A2s were made predominantly of russet leather, which passed AM inspections . Most of the leather was chrome tanned. A range of tanneries were used to fulfil contracts during the War and of course within a contract there are significant variations in the colour of the leather and the type of leather used. For example the jackets 50,000 jackets made by Dubow under their 27798 contract appear in shades from russet to a darker seal brown made with horse hide, goatskin and cowhide.

It may have been easier to dye all leather used to make A2s black to establish conformity, but I suspect that this wold have incurred more expense even in the early 1930s in producing what was essentially an aviator's work garment!

Yes, Andrew is correct that the only color was seal brown throughout the life of the A-2. If we accept the A-2s of the 1930s as being nearest to the time of origin of the established color and the fact that the 1930s jackets were produced from a color spectrum more uniform and in lighter shades than many A-2s from 1940-44, plus the 1930s had the luxury of time to produce the skins and in smaller quantities that could provide better color matching, then I believe these early jackets better reflect what seal brown was intended to be. Also, there was an established color spec. for seal brown produced in swatches for matching, though I have only seen it referenced and have never seen the actual sample swatches.

When speaking in academic terms of precision, I don't make a distinction of the darker shades we see by calling them seal brown; I just call them dark brown, which is because it was all seal brown in terms of being accepted. Manufacturer's and merchants don't have a need to quibble over words on such a level of precision and it is they who began referring to the dark browns almost exclusively as seal brown many, many years ago, thus perpetuating a myth that this dark brown was the original color. Russet brown, dark brown, caramel brown - that's all fine with me to characterize the many shades we encounter, but hearing and reading seal brown being used to define the dark colors is annoyance I've come to live with.

By the time of the armaments buildup in 1940 and throughout WWII, it's hard to say if the resultant colors we see are more a product of broad interpretation or simply willing acceptance of non-uniform color in the name of expedience, or maybe it was both. I can say that documents I've read on the subject address the issue of immediate availability, hence the willing acceptance seems unquestioned. Oh, and I'm sure Andrew meant "AN" inspections and not "AM," with the former being the Army/Navy inspection and the latter being the RAF's Air Ministry.