9mm or 45cal

[jkingrph]

And, ya know, the practice actually counts for something if you're not distracted by too many guns. An old friend of mine, once a Vietnam era Marine sniper and more recently the dude in charge of the international police mission to Iraq, was asked, "how do I improve my shooting?" He wisely answered, "Sell all your guns but the most accurate one ... just shoot that."

I think there is a lot of truth in that. Back in the 60's when I had but one centerfire and one rimfire I could shoot them much better than I can any of the multitude I have accumulated over the years, but I was in my later teens and early 20's then, vs 70 now. Now I do have a bit more fun playing with more different types of firearms and calibers now, so yes I do not seek the maximum accuracy loads like I did then, but I am not into competition so nowdays a 2" group is as much fun as a 1/2" back in those days.

 

[MikeKardec]

I had to shoot a person a few years ago.

I too have had to use a gun in defense of others, thank God just the sight of it worked a miracle and send the bad guys on their way leaving the woman who was being assaulted and car-jacked (being beaten out of pure meanness right in my front yard) the only injured person. I had no issues with the police either but that is not saying much as I didn't do much except show up and offer to go nuclear. It was not something I'd want to do again, regardless.

I've never the thought of actively carrying a gun was much of an alternative for me, even at a time when I was getting death threats, but I do take my inner circle (home/family) very seriously. I'm planning a greater variety of both defensive and offensive options that I hope might be more effective in any future event.

 

[MikeKardec]

I think there is a lot of truth in that. Back in the 60's when I had but one centerfire and one rimfire I could shoot them much better than I can any of the multitude I have accumulated over the years, but I was in my later teens and early 20's then, vs 70 now. Now I do have a bit more fun playing with more different types of firearms and calibers now, so yes I do not seek the maximum accuracy loads like I did then, but I am not into competition so nowdays a 2" group is as much fun as a 1/2" back in those days.

My feelings exactly. There is a story in the design of many different sorts of machinery, how they can do what they do, that fascinates me. Why the Colt SAA cylinder turns the way it does (it may have been designed to be used left handed, with a saber in the right), why the Porsche ignition key is on the left side (to save time in a LeMans start where the driver has to run to his car), heck why do our keyboards start with Q W E R T Y (so typewriter keys wouldn't jam). Some of these things you never really understand until you do it for yourself. I'm currently discovering why the classic Alfas, though under powered and with anything like a firm suspension, were (and still are) considered such good race cars ...

You learn through experience, though that doesn't necessarily make you an expert at any one thing!

 

[LuvMyMan]

I too have had to use a gun in defense of others, thank God just the sight of it worked a miracle and send the bad guys on their way leaving the woman who was being assaulted and car-jacked (being beaten out of pure meanness right in my front yard) the only injured person. I had no issues with the police either but that is not saying much as I didn't do much except show up and offer to go nuclear. It was not something I'd want to do again, regardless.

I've never the thought of actively carrying a gun was much of an alternative for me, even at a time when I was getting death threats, but I do take my inner circle (home/family) very seriously. I'm planning a greater variety of both defensive and offensive options that I hope might be more effective in any future event.

It is sad the world we live in can produce any possible thing good, or bad, to take place. Being married to my Husband and allowing myself to learn as much as I have from him was actually a blessing. My Husband has some super serious medical issues, that leave him with extreme tremors in his hands, so he does not have the control to type or dial a phone. Very frustrating for him to say the least. So I do not mind at all to do what he would be doing if he could. That also comes to use of firearms now. Oh he could still use a shotgun but to hit anything now with a Rifle or Handgun is not a super good idea. He did however before he was this bad off with the tremors, show me and trained with me on all sorts of combat shooting and self and home defense. For training inside the home, I have used a airsoft handgun. To know positions within the household as to shoot in case it is needed, safely, and to have cover while protecting the household is vital, the same when out side the home and in public. At the time I was forced to use my Handgun, my Husband could have with ease taken the shot. I was standing a bit in front of him when the confrontation took place. In some ways everything happened rather quickly. The fact I was looking at a Handgun slowly being pointed at me by someone that was totally out of control and screaming what he was going to do, made the judgement call I would have to do come into play. Conversation stopped and there was no time to do anything else, period. If not for my Husband having given me the training I had, I am certain I would have been shot and my Husband would have shot the person assaulting us.

I never leave the house without conceal carrying my Handgun. I also hope so dearly I do not have to use it, but am so thankful that I do know how to properly use it. This is why I state as to the topic of 9mm or 45.cal. We have one of those enormous Eagle .50 Cal semi auto handguns. My Husband was super good with it, and if he ever can recover enough to shoot a handgun I am sure it will be one of the handguns he would shoot often. But his recovery is not something we count on as at times you just have to work with what the Lord hands to you and go from there. I can fire it, but the recoil is horrific for me. We have a expensive custom made Nitro rifle made by some company in Europe, I am not sure the caliber 470 maybe? It kicks like a mule. I fired it just one time. Not again. Had a sore and bruised shoulder for weeks after that. The Noreen 30.06 now that is a very super nice Rifle. Not near the kick of a 30.30 Winchester we have and is easy as pie to shoot. Click in a Magazine, check the safety, take the cover off the scope system, set up what you are viewing to shoot, view the surrounding area to be sure nothing or no one else in that area would be in harms way and clear of anyone, pull back the lever placing a round into the chamber, taking a slow steady aim, (it helps if you lay down and use the attachable bi-pod legs) and finding the target, checking one more time if down range is clear and safe and then taking your shot. Squeeze and watch for where your round just hit. I enjoy shooting now as when I first started I was a horrible shot. Learning what I know now, and putting all that information into use, has made shooting an enjoyable activity to do. I head to the indoor range by myself a few times a month and everyone there will tell potential students of their conceal course or first time shooters to come talk to me.

I feel that the Lord can and does bless us all. My heart sure goes out to all of us here, at the lounge. I hope no one ever has to shoot another person ever. BUT I hope to never hear that some sweet kind soul from the lounge was attacked and did not survive it simply because they did not prepare for such. If you know me or my Husband at all, you know we love ya!

Being armed is what counts. Being prepared. Knowing what to do and when. And asking the Lord to keep you safe and help you stay safe.

 

[jkingrph]

My feelings exactly. There is a story in the design of many different sorts of machinery, how they can do what they do, that fascinates me. Why the Colt SAA cylinder turns the way it does (it may have been designed to be used left handed, with a saber in the right), why the Porsche ignition key is on the left side (to save time in a LeMans start where the driver has to run to his car), heck why do our keyboards start with Q W E R T Y (so typewriter keys wouldn't jam). Some of these things you never really understand until you do it for yourself. I'm currently discovering why the classic Alfas, though under powered and with anything like a firm suspension, were (and still are) considered such good race cars ...

You learn through experience, though that doesn't necessarily make you an expert at any one thing!

Back through the early 1960's I think all the ignition keys on domestic cars was on the left side, at least my Ford's were.

 

[MikeKardec]

Back through the early 1960's I think all the ignition keys on domestic cars was on the left side, at least my Ford's were.

I think you are right. Not sure that it changes anything on the 911 front, however, except maybe that, like with the rear engine, Porsche is indulging in the Franco-Germanic trait of pitching quirkiness as "logic." Driving a 911 is still essential to "getting it" or not. I don't care for rear engine cars but that doesn't mean I (now that I've experienced it) can't appreciate why some do. There is interesting history there.

I'd love to know if there was anything other than quirkiness to Ford's placement of the ignition.

 

[jkingrph]

I think you are right. Not sure that it changes anything on the 911 front, however, except maybe that, like with the rear engine, Porsche is indulging in the Franco-Germanic trait of pitching quirkiness as "logic." Driving a 911 is still essential to "getting it" or not. I don't care for rear engine cars but that doesn't mean I (now that I've experienced it) can't appreciate why some do. There is interesting history there.

I'd love to know if there was anything other than quirkiness to Ford's placement of the ignition.

I don't know, but when I started driving I carried my keys in my left hand pants pocket. It was and probably still is a little awkward, since I still out of habit carry them the same. I have to pull them out with left hand and put in right hand ignition swith. Old habits die hard though.

As for my carry , as temperate as the weather has gotten, with little to no need for heavier clothing, I find I am carrying one of the little S&W scandium lite revolvers, DA only with a totallyenclosed hammer. As another old habit, I like my shirts tucked into my pants so that further limits things, so even my compact 1911 types or Browning high power is out.

 

[Peacoat]

It is sad the world we live in can produce any possible thing good, or bad, to take place. Being married to my Husband and allowing myself to learn as much as I have from him was actually a blessing. My Husband has some super serious medical issues, that leave him with extreme tremors in his hands, so he does not have the control to type or dial a phone. Very frustrating for him to say the least. So I do not mind at all to do what he would be doing if he could. That also comes to use of firearms now. Oh he could still use a shotgun but to hit anything now with a Rifle or Handgun is not a super good idea. He did however before he was this bad off with the tremors, show me and trained with me on all sorts of combat shooting and self and home defense. For training inside the home, I have used a airsoft handgun. To know positions within the household as to shoot in case it is needed, safely, and to have cover while protecting the household is vital, the same when out side the home and in public. At the time I was forced to use my Handgun, my Husband could have with ease taken the shot. I was standing a bit in front of him when the confrontation took place. In some ways everything happened rather quickly. The fact I was looking at a Handgun slowly being pointed at me by someone that was totally out of control and screaming what he was going to do, made the judgement call I would have to do come into play. Conversation stopped and there was no time to do anything else, period. If not for my Husband having given me the training I had, I am certain I would have been shot and my Husband would have shot the person assaulting us.

I never leave the house without conceal carrying my Handgun. I also hope so dearly I do not have to use it, but am so thankful that I do know how to properly use it. This is why I state as to the topic of 9mm or 45.cal. We have one of those enormous Eagle .50 Cal semi auto handguns. My Husband was super good with it, and if he ever can recover enough to shoot a handgun I am sure it will be one of the handguns he would shoot often. But his recovery is not something we count on as at times you just have to work with what the Lord hands to you and go from there. I can fire it, but the recoil is horrific for me. We have a expensive custom made Nitro rifle made by some company in Europe, I am not sure the caliber 470 maybe? It kicks like a mule. I fired it just one time. Not again. Had a sore and bruised shoulder for weeks after that. The Noreen 30.06 now that is a very super nice Rifle. Not near the kick of a 30.30 Winchester we have and is easy as pie to shoot. Click in a Magazine, check the safety, take the cover off the scope system, set up what you are viewing to shoot, view the surrounding area to be sure nothing or no one else in that area would be in harms way and clear of anyone, pull back the lever placing a round into the chamber, taking a slow steady aim, (it helps if you lay down and use the attachable bi-pod legs) and finding the target, checking one more time if down range is clear and safe and then taking your shot. Squeeze and watch for where your round just hit. I enjoy shooting now as when I first started I was a horrible shot. Learning what I know now, and putting all that information into use, has made shooting an enjoyable activity to do. I head to the indoor range by myself a few times a month and everyone there will tell potential students of their conceal course or first time shooters to come talk to me.

I feel that the Lord can and does bless us all. My heart sure goes out to all of us here, at the lounge. I hope no one ever has to shoot another person ever. BUT I hope to never hear that some sweet kind soul from the lounge was attacked and did not survive it simply because they did not prepare for such. If you know me or my Husband at all, you know we love ya!

Being armed is what counts. Being prepared. Knowing what to do and when. And asking the Lord to keep you safe and help you stay safe.

Excellent post. Good for you and the training. Most civilians do so little of it. Having had civilian training, military training and police training, I have to say the police training was the best (for the circumstances we face in a non military environment). Although in my civilian training course, our instructor was a SWAT officer, and that was an excellent course. In fact, he had been one of my instructors over the years in police training.

And good for your husband in showing you positional awareness in the home. I guess my wife and I ought to discuss it, but never have. Probably no pressing need to do so as we have lived in this community for 22 years and have never locked our back doors during the daytime, even when away from the home. However, at night we lock up tight, and I conceal carry when I leave the house, day or night. Of course not much need for that as we live in one of the safest counties in the country. Didn't always live here, and old habits are hard to break.

Thanks for an excellent post. PC

 

[MikeKardec]

While researching something else I ran onto this thread about a certain pistol: http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...391937-best-1917-ill-ever-own-maybe-ever.html

It's a beautiful custom S&W with some truly unique features, the most interesting being what seems to be a small polished section near the sight base to reflect illumination back on the front site in dim light conditions, the other, if the owner has it right, is a carefully prepped "two stage" double action trigger. I was very, very, impressed by this! With a coupe of minor exceptions I'm kind of the persuasion that after 1960 or so firearm design descended into exaggeration and foolishness but this is a great example of what a great custom gun was like between the wars. I knew some pretty serious "gunslingers" when I was a kid and even got to shoot some really well designed pieces, this thing sort of takes me back!

 

[jkingrph]

Looking at original title of this thread, It got me to thinking. I found via another forum mention of another ammo company , Liberty, who has a line of ammo called Liberty Civil defense.

One example was 9mm, listed as using a 50 gr lead free hollow point at 2000 fps and 450 ft lbs energy, and much lower recoil.
http://libertyammunition.com/

Other calibers including 45acp show similar gains. It looks interesting, so I may order some and give it a try. I did see a few positive comments on one of the Sig firearms forums.

 

[MikeKardec]

Looking at original title of this thread, It got me to thinking. I found via another forum mention of another ammo company , Liberty, who has a line of ammo called Liberty Civil defense.

One example was 9mm, listed as using a 50 gr lead free hollow point at 2000 fps and 450 ft lbs energy, and much lower recoil.
http://libertyammunition.com/

Other calibers including 45acp show similar gains. It looks interesting, so I may order some and give it a try. I did see a few positive comments on one of the Sig firearms forums.

Remembering some of the people mentioned in the post I made up above here's a suggestion for research on alternatives to typical defense loadings: Some of those old guys, law enforcement types who were retiring in the late 1960s and early '70s, seemed to like heavy wadcutters of the type you can only shoot in a revolver. I won't go into the gory details but I assume, as FBI and Border Patrol agents and the like, they knew what they were talking about. A lot has been learned since then and yet, other than the difficulty of reloading quickly, there are some interesting arguments out there. Anyway, something to think about.

I never matured into an expert nor do I know more than the average bear about firearms. But I did have the amazing luck to get some training, at a very young age, from Rodd Redwing, a once famous Hollywood trick shot and weapons instructor and Jim Worrell, an FBI agent, as well as my father who was no slouch. I didn't stick with it as I might have but I still don't embarrass myself on my rare trips to the shooting range.

 

[LuvMyMan]

Excellent post. Good for you and the training. Most civilians do so little of it. Having had civilian training, military training and police training, I have to say the police training was the best (for the circumstances we face in a non military environment). Although in my civilian training course, our instructor was a SWAT officer, and that was an excellent course. In fact, he had been one of my instructors over the years in police training.

And good for your husband in showing you positional awareness in the home. I guess my wife and I ought to discuss it, but never have. Probably no pressing need to do so as we have lived in this community for 22 years and have never locked our back doors during the daytime, even when away from the home. However, at night we lock up tight, and I conceal carry when I leave the house, day or night. Of course not much need for that as we live in one of the safest counties in the country. Didn't always live here, and old habits are hard to break.

Thanks for an excellent post. PC

We have planned out many things here...what to do list...for fire...tornado...home invasion...medical emergency. We have a role and direction. Even what to do if one of us are not here at the time of an event. To DRILL a few times really helps.

 

[jkingrph]

I had never heard of a Noreen rifle, so looked it up. In 30-06 it looks like another M 16 type on a massive dose of steroids. It should be relatively soft shooting. I find my M1 Garand to be rather easy in the recoil dept also, probably one of the most comfortable larger caliber rifles I shoot.

 

[52Styleline]

Slabsides (1911A1) was my issued sidearm in the Navy. Mine was made by Remington Rand in 1942 and issued to me in 1966 so it had already seen a lot of service when I got it. I took it to a gunsmith and had it tightened up to the point that any barn door I encountered was in mortal peril.

I shot well with it and so I eventually bought an identical one for personal use. Still have it and although I own other guns of various calibers ...45ACP from John Browning's masterpiece will always be my favorite.

 

[jkingrph]

This thread has strayed a bit. 9mm or 45, It all depends. If I had to be in a shootout generally I would choose a 45, but a lot of 9mm handguns hold a lot more rounds. In the heat of a situation, excellent marksmanship may go by the wayside where extra ammo could be a plus.

I have only used a handgun in the defense of a person once, for myself. While a very young Captain in the USAF, I was headed home on leave, alone, one spring from my base in central Ga to La, when I was forced off the highway, a two lane road in a fairly remote from anything stretch of road. I pulled off, and the other vehicle stopped a fair distance in front of me. I opened my drivers door and stepped out with my S&W K 38 and leveled it at the individuals that had gotten out and were headed back toward me. They saw the gun and had second thoughts and reversed their direction and got back in their beat up car and departed rather quickly. No shots fired, thank goodness. I honestly don't know what my consequences would have been if I had fired and hit one, or even if I had been apprehended for carrying a loaded handgun across 4 states in my vehicle.

 

[Willybob]

45 vs 9 mm
I agree with jkingrph. I prefer my .45 ACP. Start with a big hole and don't relay on expansion. Aggressors are stopped three ways.

1) Clip the wires from the brain to the muscles so the bad guy can't move. This is your fanciful and very uncommon "One shot stop." as seen in the movies. This requires marksmanship, time and preferably a long gun, since the neurological system is a fairly small target and usually only hit by luck.

2) Take out the hydraulics. Make the vascular system leak so as to deprive the brain of oxygen. The problem is, its not an immediate stop. Although this is an easier target to hit, some people can still function for a long time on the oxygen they already have in their system. That's why bigger wholes are better. Smaller wound channels can close down, diminishing the effect.

3) Reason, sometimes a result of fear brought on by realization. Don't forget to use you words.

I carry 1911s with 185 grain+p to 230 grain ball bullets. But, due to their cocked and locked design, they require special attention. There are however many excellent .45s available from Sig, Springfield, Glock, ect. I also like the 9 mm round. But make sure if you go that route you get the right one. choose a 115 or 124 grain +p version. The 148 grain subsonic rounds uses a bigger bullet which takes up more case space, transferring to less room for powder. Heavier bullet pushed by less fuel = reduced power.

Proficiency and accuracy are the most important considerations. You can tote that 18 to 21 round 9mm wonderine but remember you OWN every bullet that leaves your weapon, and also what ever it stops in or passes through. The "spray and pray" method only feeds the lawyers. I believe Wyatt Erp said "Fast is fine but accuracy is everything."

 

[MikeKardec]

It seems to me that there is a parallel between 9mm and .45 cal and certain edged weapons that were common prior to the early 19th century. A rapier, where the deadly part is the point rather than the blade, was very fast and it's wound very deadly (because of deep penetration) but it was not as good at dealing with multiple opponents. A "saber" (there's really all sorts of swords that meet this criteria but let's use the term casually), a cut and thrust weapon, is probably better at engaging a number of attackers but is harder to inflict a killing wound ... it's heavier and doesn't penetrate as easily but has more ways to engage the attacker, meaning the point and the edge. Basically, the cut and thrust "saber" type weapons were military weapons where the rapier was more of a civilian one on one sort of thing. The rapier was better in a multitude of types of engagements; you use the edge to strike down from a horse (using the point might mean you lose your weapon!) and the point in a trench, you take on a number of enemy soldiers with thrusts and cuts. I suspect that a soldier is more interested in being able to put enemies out of action in a variety of ways than he is in actually killing any of them; speed in disabling trumps a sure kill. A civilian would more likely meet conflict on foot therefore more of a dueling style weapon was preferred. When I was fencing as a kid bouts were over very rapidly, it's a blindingly fast. We used to joke that it was a "three move sport." It's an exaggeration, but the idea was if you don't get them in three moves, they will certainly get you. To push a bit of a joking metaphor further, it was about the amount of testosterone and norepinephrine in your system; testosterone for the spacial reasoning it gives you, norepinephrine for the speed of unconscious reaction.

All that makes me consider that it's only been since the late 18th century or so that solo criminals have been regularly well armed. It seems (this is a new thought just like those above) that, as dishonest and murderous as the "upper classes" might be, only they could afford a decent sword or firearm and anyone else, if seen by aristocrats or authorities, would be immediately suspect. High quality weapons were simply too expensive for lower class people to buy or for crooks to hold on to for very long; if stolen they were quickly sold because of the profit involved. In the 1920s my dad was working in a mine in Arizona, several of the guys on his shift would cast the beautiful tin/lead/silver mixture they were mining into bullets for their black powder revolvers. These were not men who did this as a hobby, they couldn't afford anything like that. These pre 1870s pistols were their personal defense handguns ... all they could afford at the level they were employed.

I'm sure many of you have seen NOS cap and ball and early cartridge pistols being liquidated in early Sears catalogs and the like. That's who these guns went to, miners, cowboys, laborers of various sorts. If one of them had owned say a 1911 they would either sell it because it represented several months of hard to earn wages or they would probably have been suspect as a high end crook of some sort. Again, I am mulling over a possible truth, not challenging anyone with a "This is History" proclamation of infallible knowledge.

 

[stephena310]

It seems to me that there is a parallel between 9mm and .45 cal and certain edged weapons that were common prior to the early 19th century. A rapier, where the deadly part is the point rather than the blade, was very fast and it's wound very deadly (because of deep penetration) but it was not as good at dealing with multiple opponents. A "saber" (there's really all sorts of swords that meet this criteria but let's use the term casually), a cut and thrust weapon, is probably better at engaging a number of attackers but is harder to inflict a killing wound ... it's heavier and doesn't penetrate as easily but has more ways to engage the attacker, meaning the point and the edge. Basically, the cut and thrust "saber" type weapons were military weapons where the rapier was more of a civilian one on one sort of thing. The rapier was better in a multitude of types of engagements; you use the edge to strike down from a horse (using the point might mean you lose your weapon!) and the point in a trench, you take on a number of enemy soldiers with thrusts and cuts. I suspect that a soldier is more interested in being able to put enemies out of action in a variety of ways than he is in actually killing any of them; speed in disabling trumps a sure kill. A civilian would more likely meet conflict on foot therefore more of a dueling style weapon was preferred. When I was fencing as a kid bouts were over very rapidly, it's a blindingly fast. We used to joke that it was a "three move sport." It's an exaggeration, but the idea was if you don't get them in three moves, they will certainly get you. To push a bit of a joking metaphor further, it was about the amount of testosterone and norepinephrine in your system; testosterone for the spacial reasoning it gives you, norepinephrine for the speed of unconscious reaction.

All that makes me consider that it's only been since the late 18th century or so that solo criminals have been regularly well armed. It seems (this is a new thought just like those above) that, as dishonest and murderous as the "upper classes" might be, only they could afford a decent sword or firearm and anyone else, if seen by aristocrats or authorities, would be immediately suspect. High quality weapons were simply too expensive for lower class people to buy or for crooks to hold on to for very long; if stolen they were quickly sold because of the profit involved. In the 1920s my dad was working in a mine in Arizona, several of the guys on his shift would cast the beautiful tin/lead/silver mixture they were mining into bullets for their black powder revolvers. These were not men who did this as a hobby, they couldn't afford anything like that. These pre 1870s pistols were their personal defense handguns ... all they could afford at the level they were employed.

I'm sure many of you have seen NOS cap and ball and early cartridge pistols being liquidated in early Sears catalogs and the like. That's who these guns went to, miners, cowboys, laborers of various sorts. If one of them had owned say a 1911 they would either sell it because it represented several months of hard to earn wages or they would probably have been suspect as a high end crook of some sort. Again, I am mulling over a possible truth, not challenging anyone with a "This is History" proclamation of infallible knowledge.

All that being said, there is something unmistakably said and clear when one hears the "click-click" of a pump shotgun !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Harp]

Slabsides (1911A1) was my issued sidearm in the Navy. Mine was made by Remington Rand in 1942 and issued to me in 1966 so it had already seen a lot of service when I got it.

The Army issued a WWII Remington .45 to me, a knocked around but still serviceable piece; other weaponry such as the Thompson and BAR were still around,
and the M1 Garand in particular occupied a prominent role in my life at the time. A global traverse of terrain voted for the M1 over the M16, the rifle has more reach
and reliance, but the granddaddy pistol remained the 1911A1. The Colt Python became my standard sidearm after a malfunction however, and the Remington retired.

 

[jkingrph]

Remembering some of the people mentioned in the post I made up above here's a suggestion for research on alternatives to typical defense loadings: Some of those old guys, law enforcement types who were retiring in the late 1960s and early '70s, seemed to like heavy wadcutters of the type you can only shoot in a revolver. I won't go into the gory details but I assume, as FBI and Border Patrol agents and the like, they knew what they were talking about.

Actually what they were using was a semi wadcutter, which had a conical taper with a fairly large flat nose(meplat) and then a fairly narrow, square shoulder , the design attributed to the late Elmer Keith, and sometimes callet a Keith bullet. The flat meplat would aid in tissue damage, and the full caliber shoulder would cut a clean hole in a target, almost as good as a full wadcutter. The wadcutter was strickly a target bullet, with a full diameter meplat that was most ofter completely flat, so it would cut a clean hole in a target for scoring, and was a very short range bullet. I have shot semi wadcutters in my 1911 Colt and they function quite well. Those do have a bit more taper than those generally used in a revolver.