9mm or 45cal

[Rathdown]

Actually, on his way to shoot the president Czologosz wrapped his pistol (a .32 Ivor Johnson "Saftey Hammerless") in a handkerchief, which he then placed in his coat pocket. When he approached President McKinley, who was shaking hands with people in the crowd, Czolgosz pushed aside the president's out stretched hand, pulled the revolver from his pocket and fired two shots into McKinley. He would have fired more shots but the revolver was knocked from his hand as he was thrown to the floor by a man (sorry, the name escapes me) standing to the side of the president.

It is generally thought that Czologosz's first shot was the one that proved fatal as the bullet passed through McKinley's stomach, spleen, and kidney before lodging in his back. The second shot (possibly fired as Czologosz was being knocked to the ground) was a grazing shot, and ended up in the president's shoulder, where doctors were able to remove it there at the Pan-American Exhibition. The bullet from the first shot couldn't be located, and doctors elected to leave it in place, a fatal decision. The wound became infected, gangrene set in, and a little more than a week after he was shot, McKinley died.

 

[Stearmen]

Big Ben

The man who knocked the pistol out of Czolgosz hand was James "Big Ben" Parker, a 6'6" tall African American Waiter from Atlanta. Initially he got full credit, but of course, with the bigotry of the times, he was pushed aside, then forgotten! It wasn't leaving the bullet in McKinley that killed him, after all, thousands of Civil War Veterans lived to ripe old age with bullets in them, but rather pore hygienes. The doctors did not scrub for surgery or for the probings they performed, and if that wasn't enough, they didn't even disinfect the wound before closing!

 

[Renault]

Yes a hankie, but the secret service agent present said it was a hankie wrapped bandage style. Doesn't matter to me as that now great line from the movie "The Wind and the Lion" states, "The only thing people will remember about McKinley is he had the good decency to get himself shot!"

Renault

 

[Rathdown]

The man who knocked the pistol out of Czolgosz hand was James "Big Ben" Parker, a 6'6" tall African American Waiter from Atlanta. Initially he got full credit, but of course, with the bigotry of the times, he was pushed aside, then forgotten! It wasn't leaving the bullet in McKinley that killed him, after all, thousands of Civil War Veterans lived to ripe old age with bullets in them, but rather pore hygienes. The doctors did not scrub for surgery or for the probings they performed, and if that wasn't enough, they didn't even disinfect the wound before closing!

First time I've heard that the doctors went in "dirty". When McKinley was shot he was carried to a state-of-the-art operating theatre on the grounds of the Pan-American exhibition where he was anesthetized (with ether) and bullet #2 (shoulder wound) was removed. Probing failed to locate bullet #1 (lodged in the back), and a debate was held as to whether or not McKinley should be x-rayed, as an x-ray machine was on display at the exhibition. Because no one was sure what the long term effects of the x-ray on the president would be, the consensus was that the wound be closed, the president made comfortable, and to "wait and see" if it would be necessary to remove the bullet later. For whatever reason the wound became septic, gangrene set in, and McKinley died a little more than a week after being shot.

Yes, it was Parker who took Czolgosz to the mat after he shot McKinley. Virtually every illustration of the time shows him next to the assassin at the moment Czolgosz fired the fatal bullet. I don't think Parker was "pushed aside and forgotten" any more than was Major Rathbone (who grappled with Booth in the Presidential Box when Lincoln was shot) "pushed aside and forgotten". Rather, as is the case with all history, the important characters simply overshadow lesser individuals, no matter how closely they may have been involved in momentous events. Certainly when I was researching the McKinley assassination for a program on the History Channel Parker was mentioned in virtually every account.

 

[Stearmen]

Sadly the Doctors even at this late of a date, even after Louis Pasteur , were still not always using good hygienes, hard to believe. Parker is getting his dues now, and was mentioned right after the assasination, but later the Secrete Service, who initially praised Parker turned on him and claimed that he had nothing to do with the take down! It is out there, in the trial transcript, you can read all about the shameful after math, even Teddy Roosevelt, repeated the myth. Parker did what I think all of us hope we would do under similor circumstances.

 

[Effingham]

Since you asked...

When I was Associate Editor of GUNS & AMMO Magazine

Greetings, fellow magazine editor person!

the purse lining fouled the handgun (and actually caught fire on one occasion).

This makes me recall Vito's towel catching fire when he used it to silence his pistol when he killed that gangster in the flashback sequence of Godfather II.

 

[Freightpilot]

"the odds are that the gun will fail to function one out of three attempts if fired from a pocket, and if fired from a purse the failure rate climbs to four out of five attempts. A hammerless automatic will deliver 100% shot capability if fired in a pocket or purse, but off sets this with a 100% failure to fire a second shot capability due to a variety of mechanical issues, usually referred to as a "jam"."

About three shots on average out of a pocket is my experience, sometimes more, but got better results out of a purse. Different construction I suppose or roomier purses? funny it was in the 70's when we started trying this. I wonder if it was the G & A article where we got the idea to try it? way to long ago to remember.

 

[Buggnkat]

You dont think firing from a pocket just a touch wreckless and dangerous?

 

[Rathdown]

You dont think firing from a pocket just a touch wreckless and dangerous?

No.

 

[1961MJS]

You dont think firing from a pocket just a touch wreckless and dangerous?

Hi, I think it is, but on the other hand, I can see doing it. I would have to be certain (like that would work in court), that I was legally allowed / obligated to shoot whoever it was; that I was close enough to hit them; and that I could pull the gun out and shoot them again and again... One reason to NOT shoot from your pocket is that doing so DOES leave evidence that you shot at somebody.

later

 

[Story]

Since you asked...

When I was Associate Editor of GUNS & AMMO Magazine back in the 70s we did all sorts of odd ball stuff to generate editorial content. One of the features the magazine did was about "guns in the movies", and as a side bar we tried shooting from both a pocket and a purse.
*

Not exactly tested to Underwriter's Laboratory standards, but hardly anecdotal evidence either; the results of the field test were enough to disprove the movie myth of firing a hand gun multiple times from a pocket or purse.

Hope that answers your question!

Just saw this and while it answers the original question, begets others.

So - one revolver, tested 35 years ago or thereabouts.

"the odds are that the gun will fail to function one out of three attempts if fired from a pocket, and if fired from a purse the failure rate climbs to four out of five attempts. A hammerless automatic will deliver 100% shot capability if fired in a pocket or purse, but off sets this with a 100% failure to fire a second shot capability due to a variety of mechanical issues, usually referred to as a "jam"."

About three shots on average out of a pocket is my experience, sometimes more, but got better results out of a purse. Different construction I suppose or roomier purses? funny it was in the 70's when we started trying this. I wonder if it was the G & A article where we got the idea to try it? way to long ago to remember.

Makes me think that a range test with half a dozen snubbies would be in order. I'll throw the idear at the Zootshooter folk.

 

[John in Covina]

You dont think firing from a pocket just a touch wreckless and dangerous?

It's a matter of what the situation calls for as the solution to a problem. I like the idea of a wallet gun holster.

 

[Rathdown]

I think "wallet guns" are prohibited by federal law; as I recall, Hi-Standard offered their two shot .22/.22Mag with a wallet holster, but ran afoul of an obscure (aren't they all) federal law prohibiting them. Maybe Renault can shed more light on them?

 

[John in Covina]

I think "wallet guns" are prohibited by federal law; as I recall, Hi-Standard offered their two shot .22/.22Mag with a wallet holster, but ran afoul of an obscure (aren't they all) federal law prohibiting them. Maybe Renault can shed more light on them?

Definately prohibited by the feds need to protect the muggers.

 

[Kirk H.]

I think "wallet guns" are prohibited by federal law; as I recall, Hi-Standard offered their two shot .22/.22Mag with a wallet holster, but ran afoul of an obscure (aren't they all) federal law prohibiting them. Maybe Renault can shed more light on them?

When was this? I know of several companies that make wallet holsters. Desantis makes one for the Ruger LCP, S&W Bodyguard 380, and other small "pocket guns". I have also seen Don Hume holsters as well as custom ones for the Kahr PM-9 series of handguns and even the Glock 26/27 pistols (Granted it is a thick wallet holster for the Glocks).

Just curious

Kirk

 

[Renault]

Yeah I saw one of the the new holsters you're speaking of Kirk, just the other day in the "used" bin and raised the same question about NFA compliance. As the old High Standard holster were on that list. Can the handgun be fired in the new holsters? Or are they just a carrying device? That may be the deciding point. You could fire your High-Standard two shooter with it in the holster.

BTW, I FINALLY got the opportunity to shoot my new S&W Heritage edition 4" nickel Model 22 this past weekend on our annual "Hawg" hunt. I am VERY satisfied with it's performance!

Renault

 

[Kirk H.]

Yeah I saw one of the the new holsters you're speaking of Kirk, just the other day in the "used" bin and raised the same question about NFA compliance. As the old High Standard holster were on that list. Can the handgun be fired in the new holsters? Or are they just a carrying device? That may be the deciding point. You could fire your High-Standard two shooter with it in the holster.

BTW, I FINALLY got the opportunity to shoot my new S&W Heritage edition 4" nickel Model 22 this past weekend on our annual "Hawg" hunt. I am VERY satisfied with it's performance!

Renault

I am glad that you got to finaly shoot the S&W. As far as the wallet holsters go, the new Desantis one is designed to be able to shoot from it.

[/IMG]
I have held it and I did not like the way it felt with a weapon in it. The other holsters that I mentioned were designed to just hold the pistol. I also seem to remember years ago, that there was a pocket holster for the J frame revolver. It was made out of plastic and the revolver just clicked into place. There was also a space built in for 5 extra rounds. The holster was square shape like a wallet and was designed to be carried in the back pocket. My CRS has kicked in, but I am thinking that it was either made by Bianchi or Safariland.

Kirk

 

[Renault]

I dunno either! There had to be a loophole found somewhere. Because just like Rathdown said, the High-Standard holsters were on the list. I remember well. I'll try to find out again tomorrow.
We have enough problem trying to get ATF to give us answers on what does or doesn't constitute "manufacturing".

Renault

 

[Kirk H.]

Loophole or it was repealed or sunseted. Good luck and keep us posted. The only other thing I rember about that plastic revolver walet holster was that it was designed to be shot from and it was from the late 1970's al the way through the early 1990's. Dang this CRS disease.

Kirk

 

[Rathdown]

Just saw this (post 97 ~ Rathdown) and while it answers the original question, begets others.

So - one revolver, tested 35 years ago or thereabouts. Makes me think that a range test with half a dozen snubbies would be in order.

Actually, as I recall, we tried this with a couple of revolvers: a Colt Detective Special, a 2-in S&W M and P (aka Model 10) and a .32 S&W Safety Hammerless aka "Lemon Squeezer". The autos were a 1908 Colt pocket auto, a Mod. 1934 Beretta, and an FN "Baby Browning". We avoided any "new guns" and confined ourselves to stuff available pre-war, guns that guys like Cagney and Bogart would have packed.

One word of advice, though. Be mindful of how you grip the automatics when firing them from inside the purse as the slide can come back and bite you if you aren't careful.