4X beaver question based on the mid 90’s

[Qualitygoodsdepot]

When was the date they used X’s as 10% fur? because I have a 4x beaver hat from the mid 90’s that feels pretty dense and thick so I suspect this might be 40% beaver, therefore I hypothesize that the 90’s was the date that the X’s were used as 10% fur for each X but I might be deceived because if this hat was made with todays X factors it might only have traces amount of beaver as today X’s are a marketing scheme. If someone knows this information that would be great… View attachment 655140 View attachment 655148 View attachment 655161 View attachment 655149

 

[Rmccamey]

We ask that you spend some time reading the various threads to find some of your answers. For this particular question you will find that X is more about model names and marketing and has little, if any relationship to the percentage of beaver felt in a hat. There are 1000X hats, so what would that be? There are also X designations on straw hats where there is no felt content! There are also pure beaver vintage hats that have no X designations at all.

Welcome to the Lounge. Hat hunting is a disease, so be careful

 

[Trouser Bark]

As far as I understand it the correct answer is never.

Ambiguous (or deceptive, misleading, etc) marketing has been around forever and whenever a manufacturer uses a term that they refuse to define you can bet that substituting the word ‘horsesh*t for that “x” will be pretty close to accurate.

Some settling may offer (edit: occur) in transit. Product enlarged to show detail. Secret decoder ring inside because our cereal tastes like your dog’s heinder.

The “x” is meant to stir the hope of something better without the promise of anything.

 

[jlee562]

Curious as to where you picked up that an 'X' at any point meant 10% beaver?

Stetson, for example, has never disclosed their formulation, and 100% beaver has been presented as both 5x and 7x at different points.

Also just doesn't really pass the smell test for a 90's hat to be 40% beaver. This was not a great era for factory hats generally.

 

[AbbaDatDeHat]

Op…nice theory but equating the “feel” of a 90’s 4X Stetson to be 40% beaver is beyond a stretch.
Feeling the X’s is about as subjective as has been presented here on the lounge for so many reasons.
Keep “feeling” and this you will see (or feel).
Not trying to be rude…just truthful.
B

 

[Qualitygoodsdepot]

Curious as to where you picked up that an 'X' at any point meant 10% beaver?

Stetson, for example, has never disclosed their formulation, and 100% beaver has been presented as both 5x and 7x at different points.

Also just doesn't really pass the smell test for a 90's hat to be 40% beaver. This was not a great era for factory hats generally.

Curious as to where you picked up that an 'X' at any point meant 10% beaver?

Stetson, for example, has never disclosed their formulation, and 100% beaver has been presented as both 5x and 7x at different points.

Also just doesn't really pass the smell test for a 90's hat to be 40% beaver. This was not a great era for factory hats generally.

Was it Stetson that presented 5x and 7x as 100% beaver at different points?

Curious as to where you picked up that an 'X' at any point meant 10% beaver?

Stetson, for example, has never disclosed their formulation, and 100% beaver has been presented as both 5x and 7x at different points.

Also just doesn't really pass the smell test for a 90's hat to be 40% beaver. This was not a great era for factory hats generally.

Was it Stetson who presented 100% beaver to be a 5x and 7x? Because through my understanding you said it has never been disclosed

 

[Trouser Bark]

I’m still learning about hats so am far from an expert however, in my short exposure time I have noticed that Stetson tosses that X designation around like it has fluid meaning and only the Illuminati understand. An interesting internal reference they’ve made before is that they refer to some of their hats as “pure beaver” but no # of X’s on the hat… Likely because it might offer a buyer an objective reference.

 

[jlee562]

Was it Stetson who presented 100% beaver to be a 5x and 7x? Because through my understanding you said it has never been disclosed

If you wanna take the claim up with the Forum, be my guest. For prewar hats, a 5x Clear Beaver is generally regarded around these parts as a pure beaver hat. Do I have 100% unassailable academic proof that this is the case? Not as such, no. What has been passed on from one hatter via Hatco, is that the "clear" designation signified that the felt was not a blend, which also corresponds with what one member reports reading from Snyder's (unauthorized) Stetson Hats book. We also know that the Stetson 100 hats were advertised as "pure natural beaver."



The X designation is only mildly useful for comparing relative quality within certain timeframes. But even that is fraught with confounding factors, e.g. we've noted differences in those 100's across the entire production lifetime. Long story short, a 90's 4x hat is not "better" than a 60's 3x hat. Just speaking for myself, a typical 4x Stetson is not exactly one with collectable value. These are either made by Stevens or Hatco, and we had long since reached "Stetson in name only" status since the shuttering of the original factory. The X's had already been a marketing thing for more than half a century by the 90's.

The other reason why I would say that 4x hat is not 40% beaver, is that Stetson Japan has listed the modern Royal Deluxe as both 10% beaver and 30% beaver. This can be interpreted in several ways; they're making it up as they go; there was a running production change; miscommunication between Hatco US and Stetson Japan; miscommunication between Stetson Japan and the person in charge of the Tokyo store's Instagram, etc. Either way, given the choice between a 80's-90's 4x and a modern (Deckard era 150th anniversary) Royal Deluxe, it's the latter. There ain't no way there's more beaver content in the former.

 

[rogueclimber]

Was it Stetson who presented 100% beaver to be a 5x and 7x? Because through my understanding you said it has never been disclosed

Stetson has disclosed when they have made hats of 100% Beaver, what they haven't disclosed is what they mean with their "X" designations

Hence there are hats disclosed as 100% Beaver that are labeled 7X and ones labeled 5X

 

[AbbaDatDeHat]

If you wanna take the claim up with the Forum, be my guest. For prewar hats, a 5x Clear Beaver is generally regarded around these parts as a pure beaver hat. Do I have 100% unassailable academic proof that this is the case? Not as such, no. What has been passed on from one hatter via Hatco, is that the "clear" designation signified that the felt was not a blend, which also corresponds with what one member reports reading from Snyder's (unauthorized) Stetson Hats book. We also know that the Stetson 100 hats were advertised as "pure natural beaver."



The X designation is only mildly useful for comparing relative quality within certain timeframes. But even that is fraught with confounding factors, e.g. we've noted differences in those 100's across the entire production lifetime. Long story short, a 90's 4x hat is not "better" than a 60's 3x hat. Just speaking for myself, a typical 4x Stetson is not exactly one with collectable value. These are either made by Stevens or Hatco, and we had long since reached "Stetson in name only" status since the shuttering of the original factory. The X's had already been a marketing thing for more than half a century by the 90's.

The other reason why I would say that 4x hat is not 40% beaver, is that Stetson Japan has listed the modern Royal Deluxe as both 10% beaver and 30% beaver. This can be interpreted in several ways; they're making it up as they go; there was a running production change; miscommunication between Hatco US and Stetson Japan; miscommunication between Stetson Japan and the person in charge of the Tokyo store's Instagram, etc. Either way, given the choice between a 80's-90's 4x and a modern (Deckard era 150th anniversary) Royal Deluxe, it's the latter. There ain't no way there's more beaver content in the former.

Excellent Jared!!
One can not get a better summary of all things X with Stetson then this!
Excellent writeup!
Thank you for taking the time.

The Stetson X thing has been discussed and dissected with example hats, catalogue descriptions etc. over and over throughout the lounge threads by many, many experienced collectors.

Never did or would anyone argue the “finger feel” technique of an X and heaven help us all if we used a 90’s 4X as the standard.

We might as well ask ChatGPT to enlighten us around here.
That’s it and that’s all.
B

 

[belfastboy]

I have a Stetson LE from 2015, that was sold as pure beaver. It is a beautiful felt, but with the typical Stetson crap trimmings. NO XXX's at all noted on the sweat band.

 

[Rmccamey]

Here is a Stetson 10X straw. Lots of beaver fur in this one!





https://www.ebay.com/itm/126731163565?_skw=maclachlan+hat+for+men&itmmeta=01JCPGE6DMDZPBBQEB3HRYDZCH&hash=item1d81c417ad:g:1KcAAOSwRklnEwog&itmprp=enc:AQAJAAAA8HoV3kP08IDx+KZ9MfhVJKkeVptPI8JsvGbnuv06aW1xOsJWDRwWH/6K0WRV0YHLWnsbRvC7nzv7bykvYQvzioJ/gh4GGNk2SC1fGkvzSGLIvxEsQtQiqG3wc2NPZiLerNCaQq3/g+iH6/tRMZOyo4Da2YBW0GjLEbpa5l+P6G9+gjXgdJWIM8D0WFpxOdRzf5W+gv9KZdxDjQtwcjYhKY1hac170LPuQhMNa+cTvIrZgEbzsla/lGzzmgzpdhdmyZ59riDWCAfi/MllNxG2bqihDV7d56H4jbf3JkU3CCgPgwz929qW5l8aJ52lAteGNQ==|tkp:Bk9SR_LmuNDlZA

 

[Rmccamey]

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but there are a lot of fantastic vintage hats (Borsalino?) that are all or almost all rabbit fur. Don't discount a good fur felt hat just because it is not beaver.

 

[jlee562]

Not to say that one ad page should be considered a wholly representative sample...but look at the ad above. We've got the 100, and maybe those 7x's count (forgot the year of the ad), but then there's six other felt qualities listed which presumably are all blends of a sort.

I think modern consumer behaviors are distorting the way some folks look at older hats. Consider the generic answer to the "beaver vs rabbit" newbie question, something along the lines of beaver is more resilient, smoother finish and closer to vintage feel. But you didn't need to lay out for an all beaver hat back in the day to get a resilient hat that shaped nicely, I think most folks here find the mid century 3x to be quite a nice hat that's miles away from modern hats.

Obviously it's impossible to say for certain, but it seems to me like there are more 3x/Royal Dlx/Royal/sovereign Open Roads surviving than the 7xCB/100's.

So, some back of the envelope stats, $100 in 1959 dollars is about $1,080 in 2024 dollars. Median income in 1959 was $2,600. That Stetson 100 is not the hat you bought because you wanted a resilient rain hat, ya know?

 

[belfastboy]

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but there are a lot of fantastic vintage hats (Borsalino?) that are all or almost all rabbit fur. Don't discount a good fur felt hat just because it is not beaver.

All of my vintage hats are rabbit save for one Stetson Nutria. All of them are stellar felts and rabbit. They seem to have weathered the many decades of use and are still looking great. I think a great test of a vintage felt is how does it turn out after a full restoration.....from one step from the dustbin back to usability. In my restoration work, a good vintage rabbit felt of decent quality, turns out just fine.