"300" - Merged Thread

[carebear]

Oh, I definitely agree Persia/Iran is a proud and ancient culture. I wasn't attempting to denigrate them for that.

 

[Hemingway Jones]

Let's get back on track here and keep the conversation on this movie "300" that is based on a cartoon, or graphic novel, more so than on actual history.

 

[Quigley Brown]

Let's get back on track here and keep the conversation on this movie "300" that is based on a cartoon, or graphic novel, more so than on actual history.

Well...his 'cartoon, or graphic novel' was based on actual history.

 

[Hemingway Jones]

People come here to discuss film. Let's keep the discussion on the film.

 

[Feraud]

It is a film based on History.
Perhaps the film is not interesting enough to maintain a 10 page discussion.
A little background on the events that inspired the novel and film is not so bad, is it?

 

[Quigley Brown]

I was enjoying the history lesson. It helped me understand the film a little better. It's made me want to go see it again.

 

[Hemingway Jones]

I am surprised the interest this film has garnered. I haven't seen a thread about classic films that has had this many posts or hits. I wonder what it is about this film.

 

[carebear]

Hem,

I was rereading the thread (to make sure I didn't repeat myself) and I caught a comment you made about Troy.

Except for the fight scene between Achilles and Hector, which was inspired.

Good pick. One of my favorite reviewers (and authors) is Stephen Hunter and he mentioned that scene, and Eric Bana's portrayal of Hector in the minutes leading up to the fight, as one of the more moving performances in a while (at that time of course).

Here's a guy suiting up, for the sake of his brother and honor, to fight a demi-god. He knows he won't win, and no one would have blamed him for staying behind the walls but he fights, knowing he'll almost certainly die, because it is his duty.

To sneak in some history, it is the rise of the polis and the sudden appearance of the concept of freedom that transitioned Greece from the Heroic age of the kings and individual warriors as shown in Troy to the democratic age of citizen soldiers who fought as equals in the phalanx shown in 300.

However, one thing 300's fimmakers set aside for visual effect was the sheer faceless "machine for killing" a phalanx was. Twitch alluded to it in an earlier post but the film's fancy moves and sexy muscles wouldn't have been seen on that battlefield.

Pressfield's "Gates" has several great descriptions of the Spartan phalanx from the enemies point of view. An unstoppable, seemingly impregnable wall of bronze advancing step by cadenced step, bristling with spears; the men invisible inside the full face bronze helmets, breastplates and greaves and behind their large bronze shields. No screams or warcries, just regimented chants and eerie fifes.

The Persians had nothing like it and nothing that could stand up to it. In many cases whole units were, just like in the movie, shoved off the cliffs by the irresistable phalanx.

The next movie I want to see made in the genre is the Anabasis of Xenophon. 2-1/2 hours of outnumbered and betrayed Greeks voting and killing their way across Asia-Minor. On second thought, that could get repetitive.

 

[Hemingway Jones]

Very well said, Mr. Carberry.

The tactics and strategies of war are often overlooked. Look at Braveheart, The Battle of Stirling Bridge was portrayed without the bridge! Roman Legion formations are rarely given their just due. Filmmakers seem to prefer the giant melee as the most exciting way to film a battle scene. Many of us would disagree.

 

[Quigley Brown]

I am surprised the interest this film has garnered. I haven't seen a thread about classic films that has had this many posts or hits. I wonder what it is about this film.

I like films based on real events (poorly made or not) that generate my interest enough to do more research on that event. I guess 300 was one of those films. I'm trying to think of any Bogart films that did that to me....nope.

 

[carebear]

Very well said, Mr. Carberry.

The tactics and strategies of war are often overlooked. Look at Braveheart, The Battle of Stirling Bridge was portrayed without the bridge! Roman Legion formations are rarely given their just due. Filmmakers seem to prefer the giant melee as the most exciting way to film a battle scene. Many of us would disagree.

That's one thing I enjoyed about the opening episode of Rome. The front rank kills until tired and then the Centurion (Vorenus) blows the whistle and there is a line change (just like hockey). The tired legionaries move through the gaps to the rear and a fresh soldier steps up and starts stabbing and pushing. Like a chainsaw cutting barbarians.

Pullo, though brave and a mighty warrior, gets caught up in his warrior urges and breaks discipline and has to be rescued by his teammates, for which he is punished as his action endangered the whole unit even though he was killing quite well. Discipline before personal glory.

That's the kind of detail I enjoy.

 

[Haversack]

Some of the movies that come to mind which actually show some some recognition of tactics and organized group effort, (as opposed to showing the star/hero playing cowboy), are _Alexander Nevsky_, _Gunga Din_, and _Waterloo_. (In _Spartacus_, you get to see the legions deployed on the field in their chequerboard formation as well).

In Nevsky, besides the slowly accelerating charge of the Knights Templar, (walk, trot, gallop), there is the point when things aren't gooing well for them in which the horse pull into the center of a circle of kneeling spearmen while crossbowmen fire over their heads at the milling Russian cavalry outside.

In _Gunga Din_, there is the battle at the end being watched by our heros in the tower. As soon as the approaching British hear Din's bugle, the Black Watch deploy from column into open skirmish order to attack, the Gatlings set up on a flanking knoll to provide supporting fire, the pack howitzers are put together to fire over the heads of the advance, and the Begal Lancers sweep out on the other flank to drive home a charge once the Thuggee force start to break. Pretty much by the book.

What can one say about _Waterloo_? There is that scene of Ney's charge where the camera zooms up into the air as the cavalry crests the ridge, and you see the British squares all arrayed in cherquerboad behind it...

If they ever made a movie about Xenophon it would be interesting to see how the Greeks were portrayed. By that time they weren't just hoplites.

Haversack.

 

[carebear]

Well they always had the Thessalian slingers and such, but yeah, they weren't a one trick pony.

 

[scotrace]

I unexpectedly saw this film today. I was hoping to come here and find some historical context for the story, and here it is! Yay us!

 

[Flitcraft]

"300" is great from a purely visual standpoint. Its really more mythical in its depictions- as if Homer were re-telling it and exaggerating different parts and the appearances of the different characters to make a point.

I was also struck by how much some of the tableaux resembled ancient Greek pottery paintings.

Visually, a very striking film.

I would also love to see a film version of Xenophon's work. If done well, it would be a sort of Ancient World equivalent of "Saving Private Ryan" and "Guns of Navarrone".

 

[Dr Doran]

"300" is great from a purely visual standpoint. Its really more mythical in its depictions- as if Homer were re-telling it and exaggerating different parts and the appearances of the different characters to make a point.

I was also struck by how much some of the tableaux resembled ancient Greek pottery paintings.

Visually, a very striking film.

I would also love to see a film version of Xenophon's work. If done well, it would be a sort of Ancient World equivalent of "Saving Private Ryan" and "Guns of Navarrone".

But wasn't that 1980s New York hyper-stylized gang movie The Warriors based on Xenophon's ANABASIS (very, very loosely)? It certainly said so in the film notes. (About as loosely as Oh Brother Where Art Thou was based on Homer's Odyssey, I guess! But that soundtrack blew me away ... awesome)

Since we seem to be all so psyched on the Greek historians here (great by me!), what about a film based on the events described in Thucydides? Obviously not the whole thing, but a portion? A small portion? This would still be hideously complicated, but even if the filmmakers stylized the heck out of it and tossed most of the intellectual things that Thucydides brought to his account, it could still be cool. Here are my nominations for sections of Thucydides that could stand on their own as a fine film:
1.) The plague at Athens while the Spartans are ravaging Attica, and the Athenians, dropping like flies, can only watch the ravaging occur but cannot leave the walls per Pericles' instructions. You could make it sort of existential, like Camus' La Peste. The movie could in fact start with Pericles' Funeral Oration for the dead fallen into battle of that year ... an amazing speech, and as far as I know it has never been put to film; then it could move to an account of the plague.
2.) Factional fighting at Corcyra: aristocrats against the democrats, with appropriate backing of the Peloponnesians and Athenians respectively. A hideous mess.
3.) The disaster for the Spartans at Pylos in 425, when 120 Spartans were stuck on the island and the Athenians blockaded Spartan help. Could be good if the public is still excited about Sparta after The 300. Possible title: The 120. (heh heh)
4.) An epic on the Sicilian Expedition, starting with Nikias' and Alkibiades' respective speeches, ending with the mood at Athens at the start of Book 8 when they realize that most of their ships are lost, many of their fighting-age men dead, and they fear attack simultaneously from their enemies in Greece and from Sicilian Greeks sailing over to attack Attica itself. Or the part in Book 8 could be a SEQUEL.
I see the dollar signs, gents. Get a director, get the money, the actors, the CGI if you feel you need it, and I'll help you all out (if you need my help -- you might be fine without me).

 

[Twitch]

Quigley has is right in my view. Any film even loosely based on historic events should be a spark for learned people to research more fully the true facts at their library or in many cases the History Channel these days.

Being a researcher/writer of historical warfare/combat events there is no movie ever made which is absolute in its historical accuracy. If one wants visuals like that History Channel is better. As for entertainment, we must realize that any and every motion picture is created to play out on the screen.

A scriptwriter collaborates with the director in an effort to weave a tale that will be digestable by viewers. License has to be taken in order to romanticize the story. A movie is not a documentary and vice versa.

We look at events such as the gunfight at the OK corral and can't count the number of times it has been portrayed on film. Some renditions are more accurate than others and we tend to lean towards ones that have actors we like as better whether they are more true to actual events or not.

300 is simply an excersize in a new cinematic technique based loosley on a saga that did occur as it actually happened. It's not too far off given the passage of time. The cornerstone details are there. As with any picture where actual dialogue is not completely known a screenwriter has to take license to imagine what the principle people involved might have said based on his immersion of research into the subject.

In old western movies and TV we constantly saw gunmen shooting opponents' pistols out of their hands of purposfully shooting to wound. Nothing is farther from the truth! Gunmen of old aimed for the center of the torso. Given the inaccuracies of the firearms and ammunition of the day it gave him the best chance for a knock-down shot.

Some of the 300's accuracy comes from Herrototus a.k.a. the Father of History who was a child during the events. He later interviewed veterans from Sparta actually involved in the events surrounding the time of the 300's stand. This is no different than when I interview a WW 2 veteran pilot and he renders his account of a battle. There were many individuals who left the Thermopylae pass before the last stand and had intimant knowledge of what went on up to the events depicted.

I see movies like Pearl Harbor and realize that while the basic framework of historical accuracy is there, dialogue between key players in these events is built into a script with a romanticism intended for public consumption.

The message I came away with is that free-thinking people will stand up to tyranny and sacrifice their all for the ideals they believe in and their countrymen. The battle at Thermopylae punctuates the point in which Greece began to coalese into a democratic nation instead of lossely aggragated city states. It was a triumph in defeat. Those 1,300 Spartans and Greeks inflicted some 20,000 dead upon the Persians at the cost of their own lives. an equitable tardeoff some might say.

The surreal aura of the film illustrated what was an epic saga in human history well for me. The acting was sincere and the process yeilded a product that could not have been captured with regular techniques and a bunch of extras trapsing around. The lines spoken amongst the Spartans is conjecture but plausible given the situation.

Movies such as The Warriors is based on The Anabasis, the story of the Greek warriors being cut off from the sea and fighting their way back through enemy territory. It's a stretch but based on the same theme. The 300 is anchored in era events and probably told as well as we can expect.

 

[Dr Doran]

Good points Twitch! I heartily agree. One must be reasonable with one's expectations or one is doomed to constant disappointment.

 

[Doctor Strange]

A fascinating blog entry reviewing the film - and how it's representative of contemporary culture:

http://www.2blowhards.com/archives/2007/03/300_2.html#003949

 

[Quigley Brown]

Why does it seem that there's so much criticism of the green screen technique in this film? It's the state-of-the-art. Jeesh...look at all that fake background in the best classic movies. To me the shot of the plane taking off at the end of Casablanca is laughable.