1932 again?

[Mav]

We DO IMHO need to go back to some simpler times, less hectic and more in tune with family, religion, community, and friends. Simple things that don't cost money.

Agreed, completely.

 

[LizzieMaine]

There was generous credit in the 30s as well, only then you could actually get something for it, not be penalized for one mistake and then have penalties so high you are in a lot of senses forced to default. Today you go from a 7% interest rate for 5 years to 30% in one month because you were late on a single payment and see how well you keep up.

But that seems to be okay because its all the person's fault, right. No ill will on the company who writes contracts the laymen cant read, or who writes in clauses allowing them to change contracts without notice. Its all the individual's fault, right?

Well said. While people didn't carry credit cards in the thirties, they did deal frequently with finance companies -- and if you defaulted on one of those, they'd simply send a man around to your house to take the radio or the refrigerator or the furniture away. Repossession wasn't fun, but it didn't have the crushing consequences of modern credit card debt. I've gone without food rather than miss a payment on mine, because I know I'd never ever get out from under it if they jacked the interest.

 

[MisterCairo]

When was the last time anybody saw a soupline? Hordes of people riding the rails?

I saw a photo of Obama visiting a food bank. The people in line were taking pictures of him. With their cell phones. Too poor to afford to buy food, but they can afford cell phones. 1932? Not quite....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/26/obama-familys-thanksgivin_n_146725.html

 

[Paisley]

Here in Colorado, it's over $30 a month for basic phone service. Half of that is taxes. I've seen cell phone plans that are cheaper than that. In some cases, people use cell phones to save money.

 

[Mav]

Here in Colorado, it's over $30 a month for basic phone service. Half of that is taxes. I've seen cell phone plans that are cheaper than that. In some cases, people use cell phones to save money.

True enough. There is, however, also a complete shift in purchasing and lifestyle priorities. Andykev said something about people wanting things cheap, fast, and easy, and that's regardless of age group.
And, they're getting it, usually at the expense of something else they should be aquiring instead, like reasonably- priced quality clothing, decent food, and... ... savings.
It'll change- it has to.
So we can see people driving Escalades, talking on the cellphone, chomping on some piece of crap fast food burger, but the appearance of that kind of over- extended credit and consumption doesn't change the economic realities, which are surprisingly close to the early days of the Great Depression, with the same mistakes being made. Human memory doesn't function terribly well past about 40 years.

 

[Fletch]

We also don't yet see restaurants packing their leftovers in five gallon pails labeled EDIBLE SWILL, which are picked up by the Salvation Army to be doled out by the cupful to the unemployed.

And those weren't the kitchen leftovers - they were from the plates. How would you like teeth marks in your sammich?

We could do such things because our work ethic had a black side to it. If you weren't working, you weren't nice folks anymore. You were tainted. You had the evil eye on you. You were, in a sense, subhuman. No wonder people were so afraid.

 

[Mid-fogey]

Wasn't it...

…Mark Twain who said "History doesn't repeat itself - at best it sometimes rhymes"?

It isn’t 1932, but that doesn’t really matter IMHO. The potential for problems given current circumstances of debt, population, perceived grievance, technology, etc, are infinitely greater in ways that could make the Great Depression and subsequent world war look trivial.

 

[Wally_Hood]

I saw a photo of Obama visiting a food bank. The people in line were taking pictures of him. With their cell phones. Too poor to afford to buy food, but they can afford cell phones. 1932? Not quite....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/26/obama-familys-thanksgivin_n_146725.html

Do not get me started on students who qualify for free school lunches and yet their parents earn enough to buy them cell phones with texting and internet access.

 

[Undertow]

I agree with all those who've posted thusfar and I believe we're at a consensus that 2010 is certainly not 1932.

However...I believe we are at a tipping point of sorts. Sure, people have different sensibilities and tastes nowadays, people have different priorities (good or bad), etc. and for the most part, we're all fortunate enough to remain relatively autonomous and fed.

But what if we really hit the skids here within the next year; and I'm talking a butchering of the stock markets, foiled by a continued slump in employment? Couldn't we be a shadow closer to '32? We've recently had the sunset of the unemployment extension, and if unemployment numbers continue to increase, won't there eventually be communities on the brink of starvation? We're not assaulting one another in the streets quite yet, but desperation breeds many ills.

I don't think we're out of the woods yet, and I believe we could all be forced to resort to all sorts of crushing decisions if times fall harder. Of course, as previously mentioned, we're all just different from our '32 counterparts. Perhaps people will remain attached to their cell phones, but take up hunting to feed the family. Or maybe people will demand better public transit because they can't afford their cars anymore. Or perhaps we will have food riots. Those aren't completely out of the question according to today's standards but could you imagine if things got considerably worse?

See the NYT article recently published:
A Market Forecast That Says ‘Take Cover’

In any case, I'm not a doomsayer, I'm merely conceding that if things got worse, much worse, it might not just be our "portfolios" that get hit - if major companies fold, your portfolio will hurt, and you might just loose your job, too. Thus, the Spirit of '32 may not be too far a cry.

 

[Lady Day]

I saw a photo of Obama visiting a food bank. The people in line were taking pictures of him. With their cell phones. Too poor to afford to buy food, but they can afford cell phones. 1932? Not quite....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/26/obama-familys-thanksgivin_n_146725.html

Its a strange juxtaposition, true, but I liken to a phone today to a good pair of shoes from then. "Whats that person doing with a good pair of shoes on in this soup line!?"

Well like a phone, the shoes were a means of contact. You had to walk to get to a job and be in well condition to do said job. With the phone, you have to be able to be reached all the times. Thats why I have my phone. I dont have a land line. Its just a shift in the necessity of modern communication.

Also, a phone with crazy do dads is free with most plans and a plan can run $30 a month. Where as food, if you buy and make it all your self, to feed one person decently is *hard* to get on at $40 a week.

Big difference between the two.

LD

 

[SGT Rocket]

In my neighborhood

There are a lot of middle class professionals that are out of work. Come to think of it, almost all the men on my block are out of work. Some have their wives working, so it's easier.

Thank G-d my wife is working! We would be living in our car if she wasn't.

 

[Mav]

Thank G-d my wife is working! We would be living in our car if she wasn't.

Same here. We're fortunate in that we got a tent trailer many years ago when we were still doing relatively well. Mobile housing if we need it.

 

[Fletch]

We're not assaulting one another in the streets quite yet, but desperation breeds many ills.

We're a curious country. We've proven we can survive breadlines, looting, even the odd riot, but we're deathly afraid of people looking after one another by any organized means. If 201x becomes 1932 v2.0, and if those cooperative garden and grocery people start to get any big ideas, expect at least some skirmishes of a class war.

 

[Lady Day]

We've proven we can survive breadlines, looting, even the odd riot, but we're deathly afraid of people looking after one another by any organized means.

That is the most serene and cogent statement Ive heard of this entire situation.

LD

 

[Fletch]

Yeah? Well, I'm surprised it hasn't been modded as political speech.

One thing I perceive today - YMM most definitely V - is that there are a lot of people dead-set against taking any of the trauma life has to dish out, and a certain number who would like nothing better than to traumatize their fellowmen into psychic mush, on the grounds that they're "soft," they have no "character," and they're "what's wrong with the country."

At least in the '30s people expected that they'd probably be kicked when they were down. Today many of us have the idea that dignity is some sort of birthright, which only makes others mad as hell. I'd hate to see that little psychodrama played out in the streets. That I don't think we could survive - not with our decency intact.

 

[Miss 1929]

Especially if the indecent ones win.
But of course, one man's decent is another man's indecent.
It's sad that the bottom economic three quarters of the country can't stop fighting between themselves and stand up to the powers that put us all in this situation. But as the corporate overlords control the mass media, they also control the minds and reactions of a good portion of the people.

We're not talking politics here - this is simple economics!

 

[Fletch]

I'd watch that talk about corporate overlords if I were you. It may be that only those who got us into this have the power to get us out. As Moss Hart wrote once, "Decency is a luxury we can't always afford."

 

[Undertow]

If 201x becomes 1932 v2.0, and if those cooperative garden and grocery people start to get any big ideas, expect at least some skirmishes of a class war.

And I've been pondering this ever since the recession started in 2008. In fact, I give this regular thought almost every day.

Remember when Lord Cameron mentioned that the UK was only "nine meals from anarchy"? We've already seen what happened in New Orleans during Katrina. I would really hate to see what would happen throughout America.

I could sit and ponder this all day, with all sorts of scenarios, but realistically, I'm not sure many of us Americans would be able to keep cool heads and I can only imagine what kind of riots we'd have.

I'm frustrated that our discussion skirts politics, too, because I'd have a little more to say, but I have to agree with you Fletch - humanity isn't strictly reliant on decent, dignified behavior. We're animals, and when our fragile societies no longer function, all the rhetoric is out the window and we start loading rifles and sharpening axes.

I say this in jest, but I'm not kidding around: in all of the worst case scenarios, including starvation and mass hysteria, you folks are welcome to come find me in Iowa. I'll be holed up somewhere keeping sane and starting over.

 

[Fletch]

I hope "somewhere" is a ways out of Des Moines. There is a bleak sadness about so much of Des Moines (and I speak as a longtime Ames resident). I always thought one day it could become a little Cincinnati, choking on resentment and mistrust, and that the general lack of civic participation was both the underlying cause AND the reason it hadn't happened yet.

 

[LizzieMaine]

We're a curious country. We've proven we can survive breadlines, looting, even the odd riot, but we're deathly afraid of people looking after one another by any organized means. If 201x becomes 1932 v2.0, and if those cooperative garden and grocery people start to get any big ideas, expect at least some skirmishes of a class war.

It very nearly happened in 1932 -- there were multiple instances of mobs of farmers closing ranks to protect one another from the sherrif when foreclosure was in the air. Right in your neck of the woods the Iowa Farmers Union came very close to lynching a judge seeking to enforce a disposess notice, subjected other authority agents to merciless beatings, and led a "crop strike" that very nearly crippled the flow of food supplies out of the midwest.

These weren't some phony mob of shill protesters holding up signs to get their picture in the paper -- these people were the real deal. We're nowhere near that stage yet.