1920-30's waistcoat with a "loop" between buttonholes

[Retrospective]

Hello!

I recently bought a 1920-30's frock coat with a waistcoat (both are probably tailored in Japan).
On the waistcoat, there is a mysterious small "loop" attached between the buttonholes (please see the attached files for details).
Does anyone know what this is for?
I did some research but I could not find any information about this "loop".

Thank you.

 

[RossRYoung]

Most likely a pocket watch chain

 

[Mean Eyed Matt]

Hello!

I recently bought a 1920-30's frock coat with a waistcoat (both are probably tailored in Japan).
On the waistcoat, there is a mysterious small "loop" attached between the buttons (please see the attached files for details).
Does anyone know what this is for?
I did some research but I could not find any information about this "loop".

Thank you.
View attachment 675764 View attachment 675765 View attachment 675766

I also think that the watch chain is attached to this or that it is pulled through the loop. I know something similar on British suits as an extra buttonhole (not loop) - also vertically between two normal buttonholes.

 

[Retrospective]

Thanks for your replies!

Most likely a pocket watch chain

I also think that the watch chain is attached to this or that it is pulled through the loop. I know something similar on British suits as an extra buttonhole (not loop) - also vertically between two normal buttonholes.

I see, the loop is likely for attaching a pocket watch chain...

So I tried attaching my pocket watch chain to the loop (please see the photo below).

Am I doing it correctly?
It looks kinda unstable...

 

[Jon Crow]

Thanks for your replies!




I see, the loop is likely for attaching a pocket watch chain...

So I tried attaching my pocket watch chain to the loop (please see the photo below).

I am doing it correctly?
It looks kinda unstable... View attachment 676040

Looks OK to ne, seen a lot of period photos and 19th century where the bar was just slotted through a buttonhole

 

[Retrospective]

Looks OK to ne, seen a lot of period photos and 19th century where the bar was just slotted through a buttonhole

Thank you Jon Crow!
Looks like the mystery is solved now!

Again, thanks everyone!

 

[danogun]

Hello!

I recently bought a 1920-30's frock coat with a waistcoat (both are probably tailored in Japan).
On the waistcoat, there is a mysterious small "loop" attached between the buttonholes (please see the attached files for details).
Does anyone know what this is for?
I did some research but I could not find any information about this "loop".

Thank you.
View attachment 675764 View attachment 675765 View attachment 675766

Probably for a pocketwatch

 

[Mean Eyed Matt]

May I ask you something completely different: You wrote 'both probably tailored in Japan'.
What are the indicators for manufacturing in Japan for you? Or do you know the background from where you got the suit? I ask because some of the details of this tailoring seem familiar to me - albeit from (continental) European garments...

 

[Retrospective]

May I ask you something completely different: You wrote 'both probably tailored in Japan'.
What are the indicators for manufacturing in Japan for you? Or do you know the background from where you got the suit? I ask because some of the details of this tailoring seem familiar to me - albeit from (continental) European garments...

Sorry for the late reply!

There are two reasons which indicate that the frock coat and the waistcoat were both tailored in Japan.
Firstly, the seller mentioned that they were manufactured in Japan around 1920-30's.
Secondly, the tailor's tag on the frock coat indicates that it was manufactured by a tailor shop named "Shōen" in Ōtsu (Ōtsu is the capital city of Shiga Prefecture, Japan).
Since the frock coat and the waistcoat have the same button design, they were probably tailored by the same shop.
Therefore, I am pretty sure that they were both tailored in Japan.

Here are some pics of the frock coat.

 

[Edward]

Thanks for your replies!




I see, the loop is likely for attaching a pocket watch chain...

So I tried attaching my pocket watch chain to the loop (please see the photo below).

Am I doing it correctly?
It looks kinda unstable... View attachment 676040

All been covered... As @Jon Crow has noted, it looks to me too that that loop has been designed for just the bar to go through.

It's an interesting way of doing it that I've not seen before (even though I realised immediately what it was for). The norm in Britain and Ireland would have been an extra button hole. I wonder was this a variation that took hold in Japan, a particular cutter's signature, or possibly the waistcoat didn't have anything to hold the watch when made, and this was a later addition by a tailor whose customer wanted to be able to accommodate a chain? Solves the issue without the time and cost of installing an additional button hole.

 

[Jon Crow]

All been covered... As @Jon Crow has noted, it looks to me too that that loop has been designed for just the bar to go through.

It's an interesting way of doing it that I've not seen before (even though I realised immediately what it was for). The norm in Britain and Ireland would have been an extra button hole. I wonder was this a variation that took hold in Japan, a particular cutter's signature, or possibly the waistcoat didn't have anything to hold the watch when made, and this was a later addition by a tailor whose customer wanted to be able to accommodate a chain? Solves the issue without the time and cost of installing an additional button hole.

I think I've seen a similar here in Madrid, a cloth loop, but it was a while back, Simple ingenious way of doing it

 

[Retrospective]

Found a double-breasted waistcoat with a loop (could be a buttonhole, hard to judge from the photo) on an online store.
It also has waistcoat slips!
https://montagueede.com/accessories/marcella-waistcoat-slips-in-white

 

[Jon Crow]

Found a double-breasted waistcoat with a loop (could be a buttonhole, hard to judge from the photo) on an online store.
It also has waistcoat slips!
https://montagueede.com/accessories/marcella-waistcoat-slips-in-white
View attachment 677223

Looks like a loop to me

 

[Jon Crow]

Found a double-breasted waistcoat with a loop (could be a buttonhole, hard to judge from the photo) on an online store.
It also has waistcoat slips!
https://montagueede.com/accessories/marcella-waistcoat-slips-in-white
View attachment 677223

Ah I see why, I blew it up, could also be a buttonhole for a watch chain bar

 

[Edward]

Found a double-breasted waistcoat with a loop (could be a buttonhole, hard to judge from the photo) on an online store.
It also has waistcoat slips!
https://montagueede.com/accessories/marcella-waistcoat-slips-in-white
View attachment 677223

Lovely piece. I see the slips are £30; I wonder what the waist coat is? I'd guess several hundred, given they stat at just over 2k for M2M, and just over 4K for bespoke (which would be a two price suit - one jacket, one trousers. Row level pricing, but then they're not really far from that neighbourhood. It does very much look Row quality.

Ah I see why, I blew it up, could also be a buttonhole for a watch chain bar

Yeah, hard to tell... It looked like a loop to me too at first, but enlarged it's not clear.

 

[Mean Eyed Matt]

Sorry for the late reply!

There are two reasons which indicate that the frock coat and the waistcoat were both tailored in Japan.
Firstly, the seller mentioned that they were manufactured in Japan around 1920-30's.
Secondly, the tailor's tag on the frock coat indicates that it was manufactured by a tailor shop named "Shōen" in Ōtsu (Ōtsu is the capital city of Shiga Prefecture, Japan).
Since the frock coat and the waistcoat have the same button design, they were probably tailored by the same shop.
Therefore, I am pretty sure that they were both tailored in Japan.

Here are some pics of the frock coat.

View attachment 677140 View attachment 677141 View attachment 677142

No need to apologize.

Very interesting label on that frock coat, which of course proves the origin very well!
Do you have any idea what there is written in Japanese next to/below the transcription 'B. Shōen, Ōtsu' ? It would be interesting to know whether it is a direct 'translation' or transcription for Europeans/Americans or whether there is additional information. Gary @The Shoe could be able to help.

 

[Retrospective]

No need to apologize.

Very interesting label on that frock coat, which of course proves the origin very well!
Do you have any idea what there is written in Japanese next to/below the transcription 'B. Shōen, Ōtsu' ? It would be interesting to know whether it is a direct 'translation' or transcription for Europeans/Americans or whether there is additional information. Gary @The Shoe could be able to help.

I think it's a direct translation.
"大津" is "Ōtsu" and "正圓洋服店" is "Shōen tailor shop".
Notice that the Japanese text is written from right to left, which was common in Japan before the end of World War II.
This reinforces the idea that the frock coat was probably tailored around 1920-30's.
I am not sure what the "B" in "B, Shōen" means though.

 

[Mean Eyed Matt]

I think it's a direct translation.
"大津" is "Ōtsu" and "正圓洋服店" is "Shōen tailor shop".
Notice that the Japanese text is written from right to left, which was common in Japan before the end of World War II.
This reinforces the idea that the frock coat was probably tailored around 1920-30's.
I am not sure what the "B" in "B, Shōen" means though.

I would even narrow it down to 20s (or maybe oslder - 10s): These buttons with the 'embroidered' silk facing are very common in Europe (and probably elsewhere) at that time and became old school in the 30s.

About the 'B': I think it's the starting letter of the first name of the tailor 'Shōen'.

 

[The Shoe]

No need to apologize.

Very interesting label on that frock coat, which of course proves the origin very well!
Do you have any idea what there is written in Japanese next to/below the transcription 'B. Shōen, Ōtsu' ? It would be interesting to know whether it is a direct 'translation' or transcription for Europeans/Americans or whether there is additional information. Gary @The Shoe could be able to help.

I think it's a direct translation.
"大津" is "Ōtsu" and "正圓洋服店" is "Shōen tailor shop".
Notice that the Japanese text is written from right to left, which was common in Japan before the end of World War II.
This reinforces the idea that the frock coat was probably tailored around 1920-30's.
I am not sure what the "B" in "B, Shōen" means though.

Spot on.

I would even narrow it down to 20s (or maybe oslder - 10s): These buttons with the 'embroidered' silk facing are very common in Europe (and probably elsewhere) at that time and became old school in the 30s.

About the 'B': I think it's the starting letter of the first name of the tailor 'Shōen'.

Yes, that’s almost certainly correct. Japanese names starting with “B” are pretty rare these days, but there is the odd one around, and they may have been more common in the past.