Real WWII A-2 Patch?

[Deleted member 16736]

Seller says this is WWII-era, but it has no stitch holes and he can't prove it's genuine, just says "trust me." Experts, what do you think?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/120965954333?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

I don't claim to be an expert, but I am an accomplished artist with quite a few nose art jackets to my credit.
Look at the seller's other items. The patches as well as the jackets are painted in relatively the same rather crude style. Also there are too many patches listed that all look fishy. All the patches that were supposedly made for RKO Studios are the worst.
I say fake, buyer beware.

 

[aswatland]

Mint ATC leather patches like this one sell quite cheaply on Ebay and there are plenty still around. It would not be worth the time and effort faking one of these. I have an identical one. It's a legitimate Wartime ATC patch IMO.

 

[rocketeer]

First I will second what Maj.Nick has to say:
In my experience The ATC patch from the link though looks like a machine painted item, all the curves are perfect, all the lines are straight! The thing about painted patches is if done by hand the vast majority will show some imperfection. A lot of people are now producing patches that are just too perfect, and for £20 and under!
If you find a painted patch at a militaria stall pick it up and smell it, if it smells of paint then it's probably fake.
He does say never used so it would not have stitch holes but on an issue question, were patches issued or did the squadron member make his own up? The same goes for painted jackets, not every pin up girl on the back of a jacket was Vargas quality, but most repro's are(well, pretty good at least), as no one wants his dream girl to have a wonky eye or manly hands etc.
My immediate question about the RKO patches would be; "Why would they want so many different squadron patches". When they make movies about wartime units the companies will make up a fictitious group or squadron, Twelve o'clock High's 918th Bomber Squadron and the British themed 633 Squadron are two examples though the RAF did not have the flamboyant patches of the USAAF units. A lot of these patches are based on real squadrons.
Just a couple of my opinions.
lastly, I have been around old jackets for 30 years and seen quite a few, I'm not an expert and cant tell one contract from another but what I have learnt is there are some clever fakers around. These people will obtain an original jacket and paint it up, apply patches and type up provenance on old style typewriters just to make a few £££$$$€€€. Old jackets are just like antique furniture so look for mis-matches, Old jacket new patch combo or anything where the wear even on a roughed up paint job looks uneven, look in the pockets, smell the paint, is it stitched on with a modern thread. does it look just too perfect.
Just as an example, this is what a sixty eight year old painted patch looks like with fairly regular wear.

Yes I still wear it

 

[aswatland]

These original ATC patches were machine printed. I have an identical one on an original Doniger A2. They were mass produced and hence don't fetch much these days unlike painted examples.

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

Many of the patches look as though they were hand painted, not printed, and done by the same hand, a quite unskilled hand at best. Also, they seem to be in too good condition for their purported age. Also note the rough edges on the patches, not only the sloppy paint job, but the roughly cut edges. My instincts say FAKE, or at best, poor reproductions. Perhaps the only way to really tell would be by a chemical analysis of the paint? Solvent based enamel paints using pigments which were in use back then might be enough to authenticate them. If modern acrylic paints were used as is most often the case in modern reproductions, then they is what they is.

 

[aswatland]

Here are three ATC patches. The first is from the Ebay listing. The other two are from my collection. One is original to my Doniger and the other is a mint un-issued patch. They are all identical machine printed on leather. None are fakes!

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

The ATC patch does indeed look to be printed, and therefore the real deal. But the other patches that are listed raise my suspicions because of their sheer crudeness and similarity to each other and their similarity to the modern painted jackets that are also listed. I just can't trust this seller's listings 100%.

 

[aswatland]

The other patches that he is selling are certainly not originals.

 

[rocketeer]

These original ATC patches were machine printed. I have an identical one on an original Doniger A2. They were mass produced and hence don't fetch much these days unlike painted examples.

Hi Andrew, it would be interesting to know of other squadron patches that were printed, do you know of others? What about the Disney designed stuff.
I think ELC used to sell printed patches at shows, they just look too good, not a missed paint stroke or wobbly line.
You can see the patina of your Doniger matches the patch, or vice versa so looks authentic to that jacket.

 

[aswatland]

Here are some pics of my 1941 Aero W535ac21996 from the 528th Bomb Squadron, 5th AF with an original printed leather patch

Russet undertones are wearing through the seal top coat.

 

[Deleted member 16736]

Wow, this is a lively discussion for a Sunday morning! Nothing raises the hackles like a "Is it fake? Is it real?" thread. Anyway, what do you gents think about this one? It claims to be an authentic Warner Bros. Bugs Bunny patch.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/200842164781?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

 

[majormajor]

Any printed patch could quite easily be re-printed (copied) with something like a dye sublimation printer, and the more you do, the cheaper it gets. It would be naive to believe otherwise, and yet even so-called "experts" at the likes of Sotherbys have passed faked items as genuine.

The guy mentioned by the OP even offers bulk deals to traders. Yeah, right.....:eeek:

 

[aswatland]

Wow, this is a lively discussion for a Sunday morning! Nothing raises the hackles like a "Is it fake? Is it real?" thread. Anyway, what do you gents think about this one? It claims to be an authentic Warner Bros. Bugs Bunny patch.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/200842164781?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

This one looks like the real deal. The wear would be very difficult but not impossible to fake. Documented provenance is extremely important in this field of collecting as there is a killing to made with faked patches.

 

[majormajor]

The wear would be very difficult but not impossible to fake. Documented provenance is extremely important in this field of collecting as there is a killing to made with faked patches.

ALL the fakes that go through Auction Houses such as Sotherbys and Christies have "provenance". Any good faker can fake the provenance just as easily as the item it relates to. A forensic scientist would probably spot it - but would a collector?

And convincing wear on a painted patch takes just a few days to achieve.

I'm sure you'll disagree Andrew, but believe me - it IS easy

 

[rocketeer]

I wonder why so many USA sellers now have on their postal listings' "Not available to the United Kingdom"
I have painted a couple of patches for second hand repro jackets and made them look aged, not with a 'dirty wash' but by painting with enamels and cracking some off after the paint has dried. As I posted earlier, the thing I could never get rid of was the smell of paint,even after a couple of years it will still be present. Just as those jackets that are pre aged, time worn or whatever you want to call them, they will never fool an expert or even someone who has only seen a couple of originals.
The only way to make a jacket look 60 years old is to wear it for 60 years.

 

[majormajor]

the thing I could never get rid of was the smell of paint,even after a couple of years it will still be present.

Easy peasy - don't use paint

 

[aswatland]

ALL the fakes that go through Auction Houses such as Sotherbys and Christies have "provenance". Any good faker can fake the provenance just as easily as the item it relates to. A forensic scientist would probably spot it - but would a collector?

And convincing wear on a painted patch takes just a few days to achieve.

I'm sure you'll disagree Andrew, but believe me - it IS easy

I don't disagree. But all the fakes around is enough justification for me not be a patch collector!

 

[Deleted member 16736]

Seems the best way to be sure a patch is real is to buy it with the original jacket!

 

[rocketeer]

Easy peasy - don't use paint

So use?
Though I dont advocate faking patches but I am always interested in making repro patches and ageing them for my own repro jackets, and also anyone that has a second hand repro, they just dont look right with brand new patches. The thing about painting them is to get them to look right it takes ages, usually a couple of months.
I have made multi piece, painted and even had a go at tooling though I have never sold a patch as original.
As for original materials, they come in lots of different styles, painted on leather, painted on canvas, woven(embroidery?) felt with bullion, chenille, multi layered leather, tooled and now I have heard of printed. I would guess the tooled leather is the hardest to fake the 60 years of wear and patina.

An interesting thread and a great way to spend a rainy Sunday
JT