Questions About the United States Navy Peacoat

[mattb1241]

Thanks very much for those photos, much appreciated

 

[JAGG]

I would be grateful for a bit of help re a second hand peacoat purchase gone wrong. The coat is a genuine US Navy issue with a label that seems to date it to the 40's-50's. Its Kersey wool. It was advertised as a size 38 (measures approx 19 inches pit to pit) . Unfortunately the sleeves have been shortened by approximately 3 inches as: a) they measure 22 inches from the shoulder seam to the cuff and b) the single line of stitching is now very close to the cuff stitch. The seller refuses to accept however that the sleeves have been shortened, although I suspect he knew.

Could Peacoat or anyone else kindly confirm what the correct original sleeve length should be for a US navy issue peacoat in a 38 and send me any links that I could use to prove what the sleeve length should be to Ebay as part of a dispute?

Thanks very much for any help

The correct answer is that there is no one set arm length for a size 38, or a size anything, military coat. The military needed to fit whoever they recruited, so they made arm lengths in all standard lengths, extra-short, short, medium, long, extra-long. And once issued, a sailor was free to have it tailored to fit. So the claim that a “size 38” must have any particular arm length is patently false.

It is up to a seller to provide accurate information, but it is up to a buyer to know what information they need before buying. If you are buying used clothing without a size tag, then it is up to you to either ask what you need to know before buying or accept the outcome.

The seller correctly measured p2p size. Unless the seller claimed their coat had a 25” arm length, then why on earth would you assume it would have that length?

 

[Bolex]

Size 38 CG Peacoat tag and sleeve length pics.
Have 2 of these. No “jiggler buttons”.
B
View attachment 672589 View attachment 672590 View attachment 672591

What year is this ? Is it kersey wool?and what is the label on the arm ? Thanks

 

[Bolex]

This is my newest addition - US Coast Guard WWII Peacoat size 46 Long. Not in perfect condition. but Excellent. IT WEIGHS A TON!! I now have 2 Meltons, 2 WWIIs, and 7 Kerseys.. I just hope {"m all done.. I have no more room in my woolens closet.

Which do you prefer or favourite

 

[AbbaDatDeHat]

What year is this ? Is it kersey wool?and what is the label on the arm ? Thanks

49ish i think. Kersey. Coast Guard insignia patch.
B

 

[Aleksio]

So I have in mind doing a project with my tailor in making the WW1 or WW2 peacoat. Does somebody have a pattern or know where I can get one? I got myself a very heavyweight 35oz of high-quality 100% melton wool for making the peacoat, but when I read different posts about Kersey wool, everybody is saying how much better and superior it is to Melton, but is it really? Why would that be the reason? Did the USA Navy use inferior Melton wool after the 80s in their peacoats? Let's say you have high-quality Melton wool vs. Kersey, both in the same oz weight; does Kersey really beats it easily in waterproof and wind resistance department? I know from my personal experience that my heavyweight, double-breasted, 3.5 kg melton Crombie overcoat is superb for weather resistance, and as I know from the old catalogues, many heavyweight coats made at the start of the 20th century had Melton wool as a first choice for making them.

 

[Carlos840]

Short answer, yes.
Melton is airy and fuzzy and lets the wind through, Kersey is dense and smooth, much better against rain (although not waterprooof) and wind.

To me Melton is comparable to modern polyester fleece, its warm, but if its windy you will be cold.
Kersey is much more closed, almost like felt.

I own a Melton Crombie greatcoat and the fabric sucks compard to my Kersey USN peacoat, to me the switch from Kersey to Melton was a cost cutting measure, a switch to an inferior product that was still deemed "good enough".

 

[Aleksio]

Wouldn't the napped fabric of the Melton wool be better at shedding the rain? Definitely is Kersey wool better at wind resisting if it has denser wool fabric, but so is Loden if not even better. Wouldn't airiness make it warmer, trapping much more body heat than something much denser? How would Kersey wool peacoat compare to ww2 Royal Navy duffle coats? Most people here know Melton as a cheaper substitute for naval peacoats after the 1980s, but Melton has a much bigger history and use which extends all the way back to the 18th century.

 

[RDS]

Did the USA Navy use inferior Melton wool after the 80s in their peacoats?

Yes, they did. So much so that the later melton wool US Navy issue peacoats had to also have an additional liner added to improve the performance of the inferior fabric. I presume the change to melton was made purely as part of cost cutting exercise.

If you’re able to handle and compare a kersey peacoat with a melton one you will see that kersey is superior in virtually every aspect.

 

[Carlos840]

Wouldn't the napped fabric of the Melton wool be better at shedding the rain? Definitely is Kersey wool better at wind resisting if it has denser wool fabric, but so is Loden if not even better. Wouldn't airiness make it warmer, trapping much more body heat than something much denser? How would Kersey wool peacoat compare to ww2 Royal Navy duffle coats? Most people here know Melton as a cheaper substitute for naval peacoats after the 1980s, but Melton has a much bigger history and use which extends all the way back to the 18th century.

Not in my experience.
I have never handled a ww2 duffle coat, but i have handled multiple peacoats in both wool types and a few Crombies in Melton wool and i would never put Melton above Kersey for anything.

I don't think the comparison to Loden is relevent, Loden is boiled wool, boiled wool is the densest/warmest thing you can get...

Edit: keep in mind all the fabrics i have handled where fabrics that had been chosen because of their prices as well as their performances.
I don't know what would happen if you where to order fabric from the best mill in the world, and order their highest quality of Kersey and their highest quality of Melton.
I am sure it is possible to find Meltons that are superior to Kerseys...
In the end the only way to be sure is to order a sample and see for yourself, we are just dudes on internet.

 

[Peacoat]

I'm going to merge this thread with the main peacoat thread. I have locked it until I do so, then I will unlock it.

 

[Aleksio]

Not in my experience.
I have never handled a ww2 duffle coat, but i have handled multiple peacoats in both wool types and a few Crombies in Melton wool and i would never put Melton above Kersey for anything.

I don't think the comparison to Loden is relevent, Loden is boiled wool, boiled wool is the densest/warmest thing you can get...

Edit: keep in mind all the fabrics i have handled where fabrics that had been chosen because of their prices as well as their performances.
I don't know what would happen if you where to order fabric from the best mill in the world, and order their highest quality of Kersey and their highest quality of Melton.
I am sure it is possible to find Meltons that are superior to Kerseys...
In the end the only way to be sure is to order a sample and see for yourself, we are just dudes on internet.

Yes, you are right. It's hard to compare when there can be so many deciding factors (weight of the cloth, how it was woven, where it was sourced, from what type of sheep breed did the wool came, etc.) but it's always good hearing insights from experienced people here, and for that I am really grateful. Definitely, Kersey wool is one of the best woollen fabrics man can use for rugged outerwear, but what's funny is that not so long ago, Kersey wool was seen as a poorer version of the Broadcloth wool cloth, but nowadays vintage aficionados—and don't get me wrong, I am one of them—put Kersey on a pedestal, making it like it's some magic cloth, superior to every other. I am not by any means an expert in woollen fabrics or tailoring, but something to think about, quoting from the site:

"Kersey were cheaper, coarser, twill woven woollen fabrics used for poorer people’s clothes, sailors’ clothes, cloaks and overcoats, working clothes and so on. The twill weave meant that they could be more closely woven in the loom and made the milling easier, both factors reducing the time of milling required to produce a weather resistant fabric. These didn’t have the same stoutness as a proper Broadcloth, but were a serviceable alternative for those who couldn’t afford the superior product or for additional over garments not worn every day."​

Don't know if the Brycelandsco company would agree with this statement since they are selling Bryceland's Foul Weather Smock Kersey Wool for almost €1000 today, how ironically.

 

[Edward]

Yes, you are right. It's hard to compare when there can be so many deciding factors (weight of the cloth, how it was woven, where it was sourced, from what type of sheep breed did the wool came, etc.) but it's always good hearing insights from experienced people here, and for that I am really grateful. Definitely, Kersey wool is one of the best woollen fabrics man can use for rugged outerwear, but what's funny is that not so long ago, Kersey wool was seen as a poorer version of the Broadcloth wool cloth, but nowadays vintage aficionados—and don't get me wrong, I am one of them—put Kersey on a pedestal, making it like it's some magic cloth, superior to every other. I am not by any means an expert in woollen fabrics or tailoring, but something to think about, quoting from the site:

"Kersey were cheaper, coarser, twill woven woollen fabrics used for poorer people’s clothes, sailors’ clothes, cloaks and overcoats, working clothes and so on. The twill weave meant that they could be more closely woven in the loom and made the milling easier, both factors reducing the time of milling required to produce a weather resistant fabric. These didn’t have the same stoutness as a proper Broadcloth, but were a serviceable alternative for those who couldn’t afford the superior product or for additional over garments not worn every day."​

Don't know if the Brycelandsco company would agree with this statement since they are selling Bryceland's Foul Weather Smock Kersey Wool for almost €1000 today, how ironically.

Things do develop a mythical quality when they're no longer available. As with so, so many bits in vintage world, I've seen it all before in my younger years with guitars. Brands, places of manufacture, "tonewoods".... It can be hard to separate it out. I sometimes think wistfully of simpler times when the £50 out of the local army surplus was good enough for me. One of those was certainly plenty warm in a freezing NYC in mid-February 04... A little knowledge is a dangerous thing sometimes. As best as I can make out and taking account of all expertise here, it is possible, though, to develop a qualitative hierarchy that will stand up as a rule of thumb. The trick I always find is to deal with compromise: i.e. when is a 70% wool Schott worth seven times the priced of a 50% wool mix cheaper alternative? Not so easy. The Pike Bros peacoat looks like a nice option - about half the price of the Schott 740N here in the UK. It's oddly labelled: they refer to it as the 1938 Peacoat despite it having the post-war six-button front, and only being available in black. I did email them - sadly they have no plans to make it available in blue. I'd buy a blue one like a shot. Black I'm more in two minds about. Still, I may end up with one of these going into Winter 25/26 if I decide I'm good with the black.

 

[Peacoat]

So I have in mind doing a project with my tailor in making the WW1 or WW2 peacoat. Does somebody have a pattern or know where I can get one? I got myself a very heavyweight 40oz of high-quality 100% melton wool for making the peacoat, but when I read different posts about Kersey wool, everybody is saying how much better and superior it is to Melton, but is it really? Why would that be the reason? Did the USA Navy use inferior Melton wool after the 80s in their peacoats? Let's say you have high-quality Melton wool vs. Kersey, both in the same oz weight; does Kersey really beats it easily in waterproof and wind resistance department? I know from my personal experience that my heavyweight, double-breasted, 3.5 kg melton Crombie overcoat is superb for weather resistance, and as I know from the old catalogues, many heavyweight coats made at the start of the 20th century had Melton wool as a first choice for making them.

This question occasionally crops up, always started by someone who has never handled a Kersey peacoat. Once handled, there is no longer a question.

As others have said, Kersey is the superior fabric. Melton is a nappy loose weave fabric while Kersey is tightly woven, smooth with a velvet type finish. There is nothing wrong with Melton; it just isn't as nice of a fabric as Kersey. Nor is it as wind proof or water resistant. The tight Kersey weave blocks the wind and sheds the rain. I have several Melton jackets, as well as Melton peacoat. They are quality garments.

To correct a misconception stated earlier in the thread, the Navy didn't switch to Melton "after the 80s," it switched in 1980. And, yes, it was a cost cutting measure.

The weight of the Kersey was, I believe, 32 oz. The weight of the Melton was substantially less than that.

It appears that the Melton material is still available in bulk. To the best of my knowledge, Kersey is not. So, if one wants to do a custom peacoat project, the only option is Melton.

Good luck with your project, and please let us know how it goes. PC

 

[Peacoat]

"Kersey were cheaper, coarser, twill woven woollen fabrics used for poorer people’s clothes, sailors’ clothes, cloaks and overcoats, working clothes and so on. The twill weave meant that they could be more closely woven in the loom and made the milling easier, both factors reducing the time of milling required to produce a weather resistant fabric. These didn’t have the same stoutness as a proper Broadcloth, but were a serviceable alternative for those who couldn’t afford the superior product or for additional over garments not worn every day."​

And I have seen this statement quoted by those who advocate Melton as the superior fabric. My question then, as it is today, exactly what type of fabric were they referring to as "Kersey" and what period of time was this? Don't believe everything you read on the internet. There is a lot of misinformation out there. And a lot of it is subject to misinterpretation.

Those of us who have actually handled the two fabrics should be more credible than an anonymous source on the internet.

 

[One Drop]

I can't speak for other Kersey and Melton wools, but concerning US Navy Peacoats the difference is stark and kersey is superior in all the ways mentioned above. it also feels so much better to the hand and seems to fit differently, keeping the sharp tailored lines and smoothing out the profile considerably when compared to the Melton. I've handled a few of both, and one Sterlingwear and many Schott meltons, and the difference is unmistakeable on all of them.

 

[Aleksio]

And I have seen this statement quoted by those who advocate Melton as the superior fabric. My question then, as it is today, exactly what type of fabric were they referring to as "Kersey" and what period of time was this? Don't believe everything you read on the internet. There is a lot of misinformation out there. And a lot of it is subject to misinterpretation.

Those of us who have actually handled the two fabrics should be more credible than an anonymous source on the internet.

I don't advocate that the Melton is superior fabric, I honestly think that Kersey wool is better and the quote I gave was in comparison to Broadcloth wool not Melton. There are many sources on the internet and the Wikipedia that states indirectly Broadcloth is superior to the Kersey. The fabric itself is even a little bit older in origin than the Kersey.

 

[One Drop]

I don't advocate that the Melton is superior fabric, I honestly think that Kersey wool is better and the quote I gave was in comparison to Broadcloth wool not Melton. There are many sources on the internet and the Wikipedia that states indirectly Broadcloth is superior to the Kersey. The fabric itself is even a little bit older in origin than the Kersey.

I think you are probably referring to historical versions of the different wools, where one became known as higher quality due to the type of wool and manufacturing skill in different regions as they and their usages developed.