Who are these people?

[Levallois]

Who are these people that can spend $350-450 or more for a vintage hat? I have been outbid on several large-size hats recently that have gone into the stratosphere with prices bid. Is this a trend that members of this forum already knew about and I've just been out to lunch on? If so, I'm going to be depressed. Thanks for listening.

John

 

[Fletch]

Probably dudes with big heads who are not convinced that today's hatters, especially their materials, can equal yesterday's.

 

[carter]

Several of us have discussed this recently. It certainly is more difficult to find an exceptional deal on larger sizes than it once was. Winning bids seem to be $25-50 or more higher than a year ago.

There could be a variety of reasons:
Buyers are more astute due to being educated in forums such as this one.
Sellers are more astute for the same reasons and post better listings (ergo, fewer hidden treasures).
Professionals are buying these hats for the better felts and using them for refurbished or new hats.
Collectors are driving up the prices as items become more scarce.
The lousy economy is driving larger numbers of buyers to online sources. It saves the buyers time and money.
It's often only two or three bidders who become involved in a bidding war. (Many of us have been there.)
It's the natural ebb and flow of the marketplace.

It's probably all of these and more.

Oddly enough, with the exception of JohnnyPhi Auctions, items as good or better than those auctioned on ebay often linger in the Classifieds on this forum. Why is that? They are usually more attractively priced and the price is a set figure. Admittedly there are not often larger sizes but it still seems to me that there is more price resistance here than one sees on ebay.

 

[tortswon]

Slight disagreement

Carter, I fully agree with your posting with one exception. I am one of the new big headed fedora afficionados who is probably driving up the prices. My experience in looking at the classifieds is that with respect to the larger sizes, most people are posting lesser quality hats as they are acquiring better examples. It is kind of a hand me down situation. For a newbie like me, reading the information here on the Lounge has made me a more knowledgeable buyer than I should be at this stage. I want the same high quality hats as the more experienced collectors and can often tell the difference. Since the people who post on the classifieds are also collectors they do not want to part with their best hats.

Also, because I am new, I am used to the current price level. The collectors from way back when have to adjust for the new economics of the hobby. After all, they are not making any new vintage hats, but there are new collectors every day. I sympathize because I started collecting wine at 18. At my current age (56), I am astounded and repelled by the prices of fine wines. Best, Sam

 

[HarpPlayerGene]

I've heard/read that there is a big interest in Japan and some other places around the world for U.S. vintage items. So, there are finders whose job it is to buy up nice pieces for their international collector clientele and they have been granted sizable budgets. With the dollar value/exchange rate such as it has been, $300.00 is like less than two hundred Euros, for instance, putting the price paid in the neighborhood of what a modern Stetson goes for but it is actually buying something of quality from a time passed.

 

[carter]

Carter, I fully agree with your posting with one exception. I am one of the new big headed fedora afficionados who is probably driving up the prices. My experience in looking at the classifieds is that with respect to the larger sizes, most people are posting lesser quality hats as they are acquiring better examples. It is kind of a hand me down situation. For a newbie like me, reading the information here on the Lounge has made me a more knowledgeable buyer than I should be at this stage. I want the same high quality hats as the more experienced collectors and can often tell the difference. Since the people who post on the classifieds are also collectors they do not want to part with their best hats.

Also, because I am new, I am used to the current price level. The collectors from way back when have to adjust for the new economics of the hobby. After all, they are not making any new vintage hats, but there are new collectors every day. I sympathize because I started collecting wine at 18. At my current age (56), I am astounded and repelled by the prices of fine wines. Best, Sam

Sam, Well said. And, it's not only new collectors who have been educated on this and other forums. We have all been increasing our knowledge every time we log on and read the information shared by others. Blame it on the internet-driven information explosion. The marketplace is what it is and we all have to live with it. The good news is that flea markets and thrift stores, for those buyers who get to them, continue to be good venues for those armed with this knowledge.
I also agree with your observations regarding the classifieds although there have been exceptions. Perhaps those who are willing to part with the better items should be afforded the opportunity to auction their goods as JohnnyPhi has. The questions are:

1. Would MK approve this? and
2. Who would vette the goods being sold (as was done with the JohnnyPhi items)?

I'd certainly be in favor of this.

I've heard/read that there is a big interest in Japan and some other places around the world for U.S. vintage items. So, there are finders whose job it is to buy up nice pieces for their international collector clientele and they have been granted sizable budgets. With the dollar value/exchange rate such as it has been, $300.00 is like less than two hundred Euros, for instance, putting the price paid in the neighborhood of what a modern Stetson goes for but it is actually buying something of quality from a time passed.

Gene, Well observed and this is true for many vintage goods, not only hats.

 

[Levallois]

I guess I should have realized that "these people" could actually be "weese people" on this forum - I need to calm down and just save up if I'm going eventually buy one of those big-headed hats. Thanks for the insights!

John

 

[tortswon]

Carter, I'm with you

As a firm believer in capitalism, I am completely in favor of auctions. I am also if favor of classifieds. Finally, I am in favor of people selling where they want to sell. I have purchased a hat being offered through the classifieds here as well as from OFAS. The seller chooses his forum. It may be that the membership here is insufficient to generate real auction fervor. Johnnyphi has noted that his auctions are not as active as he would like.

I am glad we have options as buyers and sellers. As a seller, if I had a really fine hat to sell, I would opt for OFAS. As a buyer, I know the members here who are selling a hat know enough that we are unlikely to find a real bargain. We buyers here are unlikely to get unpleasant surprises. Long live the free market! Long live the Lounge! Best, Sam

 

[tortswon]

The enemy within

Levallois, we have met the enemy and he is us! Unfortunately, most of us lose all sense of reason when a shiny object a/k/a pristine vintage fedora is dangled before us. Best, Sam

 

[HamletJSD]

I guess I should have realized that "these people" could actually be "weese people" on this forum - I need to calm down and just save up if I'm going eventually buy one of those big-headed hats. Thanks for the insights!

John

Save up and then speak with Art Fawcett...

 

[Boxerken]

Levallois, im right there with you. I've been blown away by some of the prices on the bay, a Stetson OR for over 500? They are nice BUT there not that nice, thats why i've quit looking so much. You can get a quality hat from Art for less and the craftsmanship is top notch. I do think that part of the price jump is the increase in the popularity of hats, but before i'll go that route, i'll go to Art.

 

[Sefton]

The best of possible worlds would be the one where there are enough people who appreciate quality hats to keep our favorite hatters in business, but not enough interest in gereral to drive up the market prices for vintage. If you want to see more real hats being worn it could have unintended $$$ consequences.

 

[Mr. Lucky]

There's also the willingness to take a risk now and then. There are a lot of poorly listed hats on da'Bay. I picked this up - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110281186499 last month and it turned out to be a vintage 3x beauty! Now, for every one of these, I've gotten one or two dogs. But ALL within a reasonable margin that allows me to avoid paying way too much for any hat. In fact, I just got this one http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140265176839 a couple of days ago and it was a beauty, but way too small. I took the sweat out, stretched it and am having a local hatter put in a new one. A good vintage hat for under sixty bucks!

 

[Levallois]

Geez - I guess "these people" is "Meese people" in other words me - I just paid $255 for a nutria Stetson! I don't know what happened except that none of my 9 hats are nutria and I was blinded by, as Tortswon so aptly put it, "a shiny object." As Bugs would say - what a Maroon!

John

 

[carter]

It's all good

There's also the willingness to take a risk now and then. There are a lot of poorly listed hats on da'Bay. I picked this up - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110281186499 last month and it turned out to be a vintage 3x beauty! Now, for every one of these, I've gotten one or two dogs. But ALL within a reasonable margin that allows me to avoid paying way too much for any hat. In fact, I just got this one http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140265176839 a couple of days ago and it was a beauty, but way too small. I took the sweat out, stretched it and am having a local hatter put in a new one. A good vintage hat for under sixty bucks!

I agree.
I had lunch with Jimmy Pierce on Thursday in Dallas. We discussed the vintage market among other things. Long story short, He took 5 or 6 of my hats back home with him to do work on. One was a Borsalino Stockman (When did anyone last see one of these for sale?), another was a Mallory Coast to Coast, another was a Disney Milan porkpie, etc. Not only are these very nice vintage hats but it makes more sense to me to have these old beauties restored than to over-bid (a subjective term at best) on hats I don't actually need (another subjective term).
Unfortunately this doesn't mean I'll stop bidding.

Geez - I guess "these people" is "Meese people" in other words me - I just paid $255 for a nutria Stetson! I don't know what happened except that none of my 9 hats are nutria and I was blinded by, as Tortswon so aptly put it, "a shiny object." As Bugs would say - what a Maroon!
John

Don't I know it! You and Dumbjaw are killin' me! :rage: Thankfully, you're also saving me money to be used for something else.
Enjoy that Nutria!

 

[HarpPlayerGene]

I dunno man, that's probably about right for Nutria. If one has decent cash-flow, one can make a purchase like this now and then and not regret it. A year from now, see if you're sitting around going, "Gee, I wish I had that two hundred bucks back instead of this hat." I'll bet not. I'll bet you'll replace that money and be forever glad you made that buy.

As far as modern customs, from what I hear, that is THE way to go for you large sizes. I'm a 'lucky 7' and I have no interest in modern hats but Art Fawcett's reputation is fantastic. Another hatter and TFL member is Major Moore whose hats I have held and tried on. Nice guy and very good custom hatter as well.

Show us your hats as you receive them!

G

 

[carter]

I dunno man, that's probably about right for Nutria. If one has decent cash-flow, one can make a purchase like this now and then and not regret it. A year from now, see if you're sitting around going, "Gee, I wish I had that two hundred bucks back instead of this hat." I'll bet not. I'll bet you'll replace that money and be forever glad you made that buy.
As far as modern customs, from what I hear, that is THE way to go for you large sizes. I'm a 'lucky 7' and I have no interest in modern hats but Art Fawcett's reputation is fantastic. Another hatter and TFL member is Major Moore whose hats I have held and tried on. Nice guy and very good custom hatter as well.
Show us your hats as you receive them!
G

Agreed. As noted, these larger sizes are hard to come by and, therefore, very desirable. Had I not fallen asleep watching football, that Nutria would have gone higher. It was a righteous buy. Now I'll spend the same $$ or more on refurbs and restorations. That's certainly what I would have done with that Nutria.

 

[Canadave]

...I have been outbid on several large-size hats recently...

How large?

David

 

[Levallois]

How large?

David

The two most recent were 7 1/2 and 7 5/8 - evidently my head tends to swell during certain times of the week making some 7 1/2s a little snug so I go after both sizes. Your size must be a real problem?

 

[Canadave]

...Your size must be a real problem?

It IS, but I was able to get a couple of great hats from eBay a few years ago. You'd cry if you heard the prices (under $50). I was shocked to hear the prices you mentioned. Were these extraordinary hats?

David