When was the C crown created?

[jswindle2]

OKaaay.Now I see the difference.Not a lot of a difference,but I do indeed now see it.

 

[Rogera]

In the world of quality, hand creased hats I don't think much of a distinction can be made. If one gets that peculiar about their crease the charm of the hand crease is lost and it looks like a factory crease.

I used the word crease a lot there didn't I?

 

[scottyrocks]

Thanks, moon. Not much difference but I do see it.

I don't use either of these creases, though, preferring a center dent, and when there's not enough width, a diamond.

 

[Brad Bowers]

In the world of quality, hand creased hats I don't think much of a distinction can be made. If one gets that peculiar about their crease the charm of the hand crease is lost and it looks like a factory crease.

I used the word crease a lot there didn't I?

Thank you! Much better than the term "bash." I hate that term.

Brad
~The Hatted Professor

 

[Rogera]

Thank you! Much better than the term "bash." I hate that term.

Brad
~The Hatted Professor

Me too and I accidentally use it when I don't mean to. It takes all of the artistry out of the act.

 

[moontheloon]

I think "bash" is perfectly relevant

not every bash is a crease and not every crease is a bash

not sure I could look at a pic like this and not use the word bash

 

[alanfgag]

I wonder how much discussion there was back in the day between men about the shape of their hats? My guess is not very much. When I first read the title of this thread (and posted the Lee photo and advertisement above), I thought it queried the introduction of machine pressed creases, which seemed to be best suited to a fully rounded C shape. My guess is the market it anticipated was men who preferred not to have to fuss with shaping a crease or reshaping one that got mussed in the on again off again world.

 

[scottyrocks]

I would venture to guess that hats, being an everyday thing, did not have the enthusiast following that niche items do. When things become a specialty, enthusiasts fuss over them. If everyone began to wear fedoras again, they would soon become an item to become less obsessive about, although some people would always be or remain enthusiasts.

But you never know. Maybe these guys really did secretly discuss their hats over coffee. Or booze.

 

[buler]

Earliest mention that I've found for Lee's pre-blocked C crowns is mid-40s. I would guess this would be one of the first occurrences of a factory blocked crease.

B

 

[moontheloon]

I know a man named Max Steiner who grew up in Brooklyn but now resides in Jersey City ...
he is 86 years young ... and sharp as a tack
I met Max on one of my excursions maybe 6 or 7 years ago when my quest for the history of hats and those who wore them at a time when they were an everyday accessory started ...
I had planned to write a book called Hats of Old New York ...I conducted probably 100 interviews and accumulated over 200 pictures ....
that project has since taken a back seat to my family and career ... I also lost much of my research in a recent computer crash unfortunately ... long story

anyway ... I still talk to Max now and then and meet him for coffee when I get a chance ... this morning was on of those chances
I speak to Max about many things discussed on this forum just to hear from someone who was an avid hat wearer "then"

he of course only speaks for himself but he says ... and I'm quoting off a recording from my phone
thought this may be a good place to put this ...

"I only spoke about my hats to the salesmen at Martins. Who else cared? Now after speaking with you I wish I had taken better care of them. You didn't think of it. Every once and a while a young man may comment and ask what I was wearing just as they asked what you were smoking. Brands were a big deal in cigarettes you know. (inaudible) because they were like your shoes. Like your ties ... something you wore leaving the house. Not unlike the way some throw on a baseball cap today to walk the kids to school or to the laundry."

Me - did you have a Sunday hat ... or a hat that was for special occasions ?

"not that I remember....no . When one wore out you got another ... like shoes. "

Me - how many did you have at any given time?

"oh I dunno ... four or five I suppose."

Me - did you keep them in boxes?

"no. they sat up on the shelf in the coat closet or on the coat rack."

Me - do you remember what you had?

"uh ... (long pause) ... I had a nice Dobbs that I wore a lot . A couple Stetson I think. A few other brands I may recognize if you said the name but I don't recall at the moment."

Me - you still have any?

" I do ... this is one of them." (holds up a gray Stetson Sovereign Mode Edge with a wide black ribbon)

Me - that right there you got when ?

"I dunno ... in the early 50s sometime I would guess"

Me - I've asked you this before but I want to get your answer recorded again because I lost the tapes from the last time... did you take your hat off when you sat in a restaurant ? ... did you leave it on in elevators? ... what was the whole hat on or off situation like in say the 40s and 50s ?

" I would not wear my hat at the table in a restaurant .... I still don't . No one did. Of course you would take it off in the doctors office or something or in church. What did you say elevators? ... I don't know ... it depends if it had been raining I guess ... I may take it off to shake off the drops."

Me - how about at a bar or a diner counter ?

" I suppose I would look for somewhere to hang it. Not very common today ... but then you pretty much always had a hat check or somewhere to at least put it up. I suppose at a diner counter I may leave it on because I'm probably not going to be there long. It was expected of you to not wear your hat when dining with others and facing them. If you were shoulder to shoulder at a counter or bar for some reason that felt more casual. I may even leave my coat on . But dining at a table . Facing my guests I would not be wearing my hat ... no ... and this is not some old fashioned stuff here ... I see gentlemen today sitting at a table in their baseball caps and feel that they should take them off ... also my grandmother always told me to never put your hat on a table so I never did"

Me - what did you do if there was no place to hang it

"there was always somewhere to put your hat because everyone had one on"


.... this goes on and on but I won't bore you with it if you are not interested

I was going to start a Max thread and share my discussions with him ... maybe put them up in audio form ... but I think I'll try it here first to see if anyone even cares ... here is as good of a place as any I guess

I think it is all very interesting

 

[hatophile]

I know a man named Max Steiner who grew up in Brooklyn but now resides in Jersey City ...
he is 86 years young ... and sharp as a tack
I met Max on one of my excursions maybe 6 or 7 years ago when my quest for the history of hats and those who wore them at a time when they were an everyday accessory started ...
I had planned to write a book called Hats of Old New York ...I conducted probably 100 interviews and accumulated over 200 pictures ....
that project has since taken a back seat to my family and career ... I also lost much of my research in a recent computer crash unfortunately ... long story

anyway ... I still talk to Max now and then and meet him for coffee when I get a chance ... this morning was on of those chances
I speak to Max about many things discussed on this forum just to hear from someone who was an avid hat wearer "then"

he of course only speaks for himself but he says ... and I'm quoting off a recording from my phone
thought this may be a good place to put this ...

"I only spoke about my hats to the salesmen at Martins. Who else cared? Now after speaking with you I wish I had taken better care of them. You didn't think of it. Every once and a while a young man may comment and ask what I was wearing just as they asked what you were smoking. Brands were a big deal in cigarettes you know. (inaudible) because they were like your shoes. Like your ties ... something you wore leaving the house. Not unlike the way some throw on a baseball cap today to walk the kids to school or to the laundry."

Me - did you have a Sunday hat ... or a hat that was for special occasions ?

"not that I remember....no . When one wore out you got another ... like shoes. "

Me - how many did you have at any given time?

"oh I dunno ... four or five I suppose."

Me - did you keep them in boxes?

"no. they sat up on the shelf in the coat closet or on the coat rack."

Me - do you remember what you had?

"uh ... (long pause) ... I had a nice Dobbs that I wore a lot . A couple Stetson I think. A few other brands I may recognize if you said the name but I don't recall at the moment."

Me - you still have any?

" I do ... this is one of them." (holds up a gray Stetson Sovereign Mode Edge with a wide black ribbon)

Me - that right there you got when ?

"I dunno ... in the early 50s sometime I would guess"

Me - I've asked you this before but I want to get your answer recorded again because I lost the tapes from the last time... did you take your hat off when you sat in a restaurant ? ... did you leave it on in elevators? ... what was the whole hat on or off situation like in say the 40s and 50s ?

" I would not wear my hat at the table in a restaurant .... I still don't . No one did. Of course you would take it off in the doctors office or something or in church. What did you say elevators? ... I don't know ... it depends if it had been raining I guess ... I may take it off to shake off the drops."

Me - how about at a bar or a diner counter ?

" I suppose I would look for somewhere to hang it. Not very common today ... but then you pretty much always had a hat check or somewhere to hat least put it up. I suppose at a diner counter I may leave it on because I'm probably not going to be there long. It was expected of you to not wear your hat when dining with others and facing them. If you were shoulder to shoulder at a counter or bar for some reason that felt more casual. I may even leave my coat on . But dining at a table . Facing my guests I would not be wearing my hat ... no ... and this is not some old fashioned stuff here ... I see gentlemen today sitting at a table in their baseball caps and feel that they should take them off ... also my grandmother always told me to never put your hat on a table so I never did"

Me - what did you do if there was no place to hang it

"there was always somewhere to put your hat because everyone had one on"


.... this goes on and on but I won't bore you with it if you are not interested

I was going to start a Max thread and share my discussions with him ... maybe put them up in audio form ... but I think I'll try it here first to see if anyone even cares ... here is as good of a place as any I guess

I think it is all very interesting

Very interesting. It's history of a past time and almost extinct men's accessory. I love history, and I REALLY love hat history!

 

[T Jones]

Thank you! Much better than the term "bash." I hate that term.

Brad
~The Hatted Professor

+1

I always made a distinction between bashing a hat and creasing a hat...

Bash...the hat was basically pushed in on one side at the top in this John Wayne movie.

Crease...C crown. Mike Miller, Northwest Hat Co.

Crease...Center Dent

Crease...

 

[40Cal]

I care..... more Max please!

 

[moontheloon]

I care..... more Max please!

I have tons ... hahaha

... and for the record ... Max doesn't say "bash" or "crease" ... when speaking of shaping a hat by hand he says "block"

I have a whole discussion recorded where we talk about the way he "blocked" his hats

 

[EstherWeis]

I have tons ... hahaha

... and for the record ... Max doesn't say "bash" or "crease" ... when speaking of shaping a hat by hand he says "block"

I have a whole discussion recorded where we talk about the way he "blocked" his hats

I find it truly fascinating!

My German grandfather was an avid hat wearer. He passed away when I was young unfortunately. We would have had a lot to talk about I'm sure.

I would be thrilled to hear more and I would def. buy that book!!

 

[alanfgag]

It's a nice idea for a thread on oral histories. Max would have been in his mid twenties in the mid 1950s - the tail end of the era, but of course we won't have live reports from much earlier than that. My Dad is 91 and we talk about hats a bunch. He has always paid attention to style. He wears a size smaller than me - I love finding a nice hat for him. My father-in-law is 97. I don't remember ever seeing a photo of him in a hat. His father was a NYC tailor who was involved in the fashion industry. He was partners with Philip Mangone. He was an elegant man. I would have loved to see some of his hats.

 

[alanfgag]

On bash vs. crease vs. block... note the Lee ad posted above talks about pre-"blocked" hats. I believe that ad is from 1942.

 

[alanfgag]

Earliest mention that I've found for Lee's water-bloc hats is 1934. I would guess this would be one of the first occurrences of a factory blocked crease.

B

Do you find a reference that suggests Water-Bloc were pre-blocked at that time? I thought Water-Bloc was a Lee trademark referring to their felt finish quality.

 

[Frunobulax]

Another vote for more Max. Oral histories are a great way to document everyday life. Thanks, Moonie, for making this effort. Too bad about your hard drive.

 

[Kirk H.]

Yesss to a Max thread.