When does a gentleman fight back?

[Carlisle Blues]

Silly provocations from people you don't care, you ignore.
You try not to hit first.
Self-control? Sure.

But sometimes confrontation is inevitable. If you are witness to some horrible behavior being perpetrated to weak and defensless people or animals, you have to respond , otherwise you'd be a coward and being a coward (physically or mentally) is not a good thing to be in my book.

My 2 cents worth.

Very interesting concept - would any untrained non-fire fighters would run into a burning seven story high rise to save two small unattended children knowing that you may perish in the process?

OR to what lengths would you go to rescue animals?

OR fight for the rights of the disabled knowing they do not have the resources to pay you?

Is there a sense of moral or social obligation in any of these situations. Does being a "gentleperson" (not just a Gentleman) constitute merely not getting into fights or must a greater measure be attained?

 

[HadleyH]

Very interesting concept - would any untrained non-fire fighters would run into a burning seven story high rise to save two small unattended children knowing that you may perish in the process?

OR to what lengths would you go to rescue animals?

OR fight for the rights of the disabled knowing they do not have the resources to pay you?

Is there a sense of moral or social obligation in any of these situations. Does being a "gentleperson" (not just a Gentleman) constitute merely not getting into fights or must a greater measure be attained?

I think there is a sense of 'moral obligation' to a certain extent ... this is not an easy question to answer, to what lengths would one go ... at the end of the day you must simply do what you think is right.


Now, when it comes to getting into fights, well ... sometimes a man has to do what a man has to do and in my opinion , gentlemen do fight when necessary. I don't see anything wrong with that!

 

[KY Gentleman]

As Harold Ramis said in the movie "Stripes" - "My father always told me to never strike someone in anger unless I was really, really sure I could get away with it". This is my credo on the subject.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

You certainly have an extremely active imagination, Lear.

bk

 

[JEEP]

Just to lighten up a bit. Jeep, your post reminded me of this story:

A man wakes up one night, to see 3 young guys trying to steal his car.
So he calls the local policestation.
They tell him, that they don't have a patrolcar they can send at the moment, and asks him to sit tight and don't do anything.

5 minutes later he calls the policestation again. This time he tells them, that it's OK - he has shot two of the carthiefs - and wounded the last one.
Then he hangs up.

Within two minutes the house is surrounded by 10 policecars, 4 squadcars, 2 helicopters and what have you. And the 3 carthiefs are arrested.

A very angry Chief of police comes up to the man and says:
"I thought you said you had shot at these guys - I don't see any firearm!"
"That's right" - the man says - "and you said you did not have a patrolcar".

Good one

Sad part is; this could easily happen here.

The police have all the time in the World when it comes to cheking our inventory of guns and knives for any illegal knives or unregistered firearms (funny; they never find any - and never ever has in our shop, because there are none) - but if we ask them to pick up a shoplifter or to come and remove a threatening customer they are unable to do so due to lack of recourses - we are told to get the names and adresses of the offenders and then the police will contact them later (yes, seriously!). I know that the average policeman is not to blame and that the cause for this problem lies higher in the system - but as it is now shoplifters roam free in our shop and as to the gangs; a violent confrontation (on their end) is not far away - they know that the police won't come if we call them, therefore they see themselves entitled to do whatever they please - which mostly means stealing and trying to pick fights with us and our customers. Here's the real funny part; whitout the police being involved we cannot legaly ban them from entering our shop - because that would be discrimination!
We are getting quite desperate - especially me as I am the "big guy" in the shop. I do not want to fight anyone - but everyday I fear that today I may end up with no choice.


Regards.

Jakob

 

[Lear]

You certainly have an extremely active imagination, Lear.

bk

I wondered how long it would be before someone thought that. Even I find it hard to believe. It's probably due to the fact that I've written the dialogue as heard. Makes it sound almost like fiction.

But really, if I was going to imagine such scenarios, I'd make sure that I emerged the hero. It was the tow truck incident from yesterday that prompted me to begin this thread.

Well, it's hopefully been somewhat entertaining. I also hope that it doesn't sound as if I'm moaning or feeling sorry for myself. Just thought that some might want to hear of an amusing, never ending drama.

Have a safe day

Lear

 

[Lear]

(Snipped)- especially me as I am the "big guy" in the shop. I do not want to fight anyone - but everyday I fear that today I may end up with no choice.

Regards.

Jakob

I feel your pain Jakob.

I have actually tried the, "Look, I'm just a delicate person, who wants to lead a peaceful life", kind of approach. This has more than once, completely diffused a situation. Not a guarantee though, so if someone pulls a large calibre weapon after you utter these words, don't blame me

Lear

 

[JEEP]

I feel your pain Jakob.

I have actually tried the, "Look, I'm just a delicate person, who wants to lead a peaceful life", kind of approach. This has more than once, completely diffused a situation. Not a guarantee though, so if someone pulls a large calibre weapon after you utter these words, don't blame me

Lear

Trust me, that will not work with these guys...


Regards.

Jakob

 

[Carlisle Blues]

I think there is a sense of 'moral obligation' to a certain extent ... this is not an easy question to answer, to what lengths would one go ... at the end of the day you must simply do what you think is right.


Now, when it comes to getting into fights, well ... sometimes a man has to do what a man has to do and in my opinion , gentlemen do fight when necessary. I don't see anything wrong with that!

In the first instance if I didn't do anything I would haunted by those children screams for the rest of my life.

I should have been more explicit about a "fight". I meant smacking someone around. Otherwise, I truly go by the idea that "sometimes an man needs a fight to remind himself what he stands for". Actually had one yesterday with some state agency on behalf of a disabled Vet he won, they lost.

As far as moral or social obligation...I was blessed with a certain skill set, as are we all. Simply sharing it as freely as it was given to me, truly gives me a sense that I am a participating member of society.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

My husband is a gentleman. And a (now a non-active duty) Marine. Not inconsistent.

 

[CopperNY]

there will always be "what if" situations, but in general:

...when you realize you can't just walk away.

 

[KittyT]

OB: This your car?

Me: Don't you worry yourself about that car... why are you on my private property?

Lear, when you immediate take a defensive tone with someone, they will question you and become aggressive, as you are acting like you've already done something wrong. I recognize this because it is something of which I realize I'm occasionally guilty. Perhaps a polite "No, I'm watching it for a friend. Please kindly leave my private property" would have diffused the situation early on.

OB: We were just passing OK. Wondered if you wanted to get rid of it, that's all. So don't you come around here giving it all of that f..king stuff!

Me: Well actually, as I already live here, it's you that's coming around here, not me.

You saw already at this point that these 2 blokes were starting to get aggressive with you, so why make a smart ass comment? Again, this is something I'm regularly guilty of. It never makes the situation better and when you back-handedly tell someone they are stupid, they usually do not respond kindly. Perhaps, "No, I don't want to get rid of it, I'm watching it for a friend. Have a good day," and a return back into the house would have avoided any further confrontation.

 

[MrNewportCustom]

I am not a fighter. Call me whatever you wish, but I will not, cannot, nor do I even wish to ever be involved in a physical confrontation. I avoid public places and activities where fights are known to break out; bars, pool halls, 125th street, certain sporting events, etc.

You see, I've been in three fights in my entire life, all of them while in school, and I didn't start a single one. My record: Two losses (one to protect my personal belongings and one to protect my younger brother) and one accidental win - the teacher broke it up and my aggressor returned to school the next day with a fractured arm. How that happened, I'll never know (but he said that I'd broken his arm); when he started swinging at me, I just held up my arms to protect myself. (I guess it can't be said that I actually fought.) To this day - and this happened in junior high - I have no idea what could have set off a guy who, up until that moment, was a friend.

I will take on a verbal confrontation to defend a woman, if I know her. Beyond that, if she wants to be with a jerk, that's her business. (This could be a form of revenge, on my part: I've spent too many years losing whatever gal I happened to like at the time to a jerk who treated her like crap.) But, if she happens to be my lady, I'll do everything in my power to defuse the situation, usually by way of getting her and I out of there as soon as the situation begins to look like it could soon become inescapable.

I'd rather be called a coward a thousand times for not fighting than to see harm come to my lady. I'd rather leave what was once a festive occasion than see either of us injured. I can take a name-calling; that's nothing.

Please take the following in the right way: I won't be protecting her as much as I'll be protecting us. Two people out of a bad situation is one-hundred percent better than one person watching as it happens. And the odds are that it'll be happening to me! Call me a coward. Go ahead, I won't mind at all.

That being said: If it is an absolute necessity - the last resort - then I must fight. Then and only then will I. Fortunately, I've learned how to live a life that tends to keep me out of such situations.


Lee

 

[SamMarlowPI]

When does a gentleman fight back?


...when you know the law will be on your side of the other persons a$$-kicking...

 

[Godfrey]

I find this a pretty interesting thread. A few years ago I was attacked by about 6 guys in a park and had a number of teeth knocked out and my palet broken. Oddly I was trying to avoid a confrontation - it was just that these guys wanted to punch someone. So after a few years reflection and $13k worth of pretty extensive dental surgery to restore what looks I had I often find myself confronted by the following question from friends:

"What would you do if you could get hold of those guys?"

Other than call the police - nothing else much. Through that whole experience I realised that violence is transactional and the quantum of the transaction is never even. Someone always feels like they need to get more to even it up.

So I avoid the transaction all together. I guess my only exception is when others are being attacked. Then I feel my response should be more strategic than tactical. For example I was on a tram* the other day when a number of louts got on who began bad mouthing a number of random passengers. I SMS'ed my wife to call the transit police (gave her my location and the tram number). They got on a few stops later and resolved the situation. Problem solved without confrontation.

Needless to say my experiences of a number of years ago were a huge shock to the personal esteem. I honestly felt afraid in many situations. Something that has restored this without compromising my beliefs has been the study of Aikido - pretty much the only martial art I found based on self defense and principles of peace. I feel more personally secure while also knowing that avoidance is the best policy. As I studied Aikido I guess I realised that the best part of the training was that if I actually had to use the skills I had already failed. That failure was so much worse than any illusory feeling of cowardice.

To that end I utterly agree with KittyT's sentiment that polite and non confrontational language is often the best way to defuse a bad situation. In the words of Wilde

“A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.”

Self control and wit should be our hallmark and self assurance without arrogance our legacy. Most of all there are never any situations that call for bad language - and I don't mean the odd expletive. Real bad language is that which treats others without respect. Treating other with respect always says more about me than it does about the recipients willingness to reciprocate.

Good God! This is obviously got me a little philosophical! Apologies for my little essays moral overtones.

*Yes - my home town of Melbourne still has trams.

 

[Lear]

Lear, when you immediate take a defensive tone with someone, they will question you and become aggressive, as you are acting like you've already done something wrong. I recognize this because it is something of which I realize I'm occasionally guilty. Perhaps a polite "No, I'm watching it for a friend. Please kindly leave my private property" would have diffused the situation early on.



You saw already at this point that these 2 blokes were starting to get aggressive with you, so why make a smart ass comment? Again, this is something I'm regularly guilty of. It never makes the situation better and when you back-handedly tell someone they are stupid, they usually do not respond kindly. Perhaps, "No, I don't want to get rid of it, I'm watching it for a friend. Have a good day," and a return back into the house would have avoided any further confrontation.

KittyT, you are the voice of reason (I really do mean that):eusa_clap

When physical confrontation is off the menu, I'll often resort to calmly delivered words. Now even this form of meek mannered rebuff is denied us pacifists. The uncouth (can a person be couth?) appear to be holding all of the cards.

For example: When I politely request some form of obedience from another member of the public, that request is often met with a sulky, "What?". They've obviously heard what I've said, and are simply getting off on the fact that I'll have to repeat myself. So, my reply is always, "Why don't you tell me what you thought I said, and I'll tell you if that's correct". Take it from me, this never goes down well

And hey! I was only kidding about the obedience bit

Reading other peoples tales of collision avoidance has been fascinating. Thanks to all. I'm beginning to feel much better about the whole thing.

Lear

 

[Fedord Spaniard]

I find this a pretty interesting thread. A few years ago I was attacked by about 6 guys in a park and had a number of teeth knocked out and my palet broken. Oddly I was trying to avoid a confrontation - it was just that these guys wanted to punch someone. So after a few years reflection and $13k worth of pretty extensive dental surgery to restore what looks I had I often find myself confronted by the following question from friends:

"What would you do if you could get hold of those guys?"

Other than call the police - nothing else much. Through that whole experience I realised that violence is transactional and the quantum of the transaction is never even. Someone always feels like they need to get more to even it up.

So I avoid the transaction all together. I guess my only exception is when others are being attacked. Then I feel my response should be more strategic than tactical. For example I was on a tram* the other day when a number of louts got on who began bad mouthing a number of random passengers. I SMS'ed my wife to call the transit police (gave her my location and the tram number). They got on a few stops later and resolved the situation. Problem solved without confrontation.

Needless to say my experiences of a number of years ago were a huge shock to the personal esteem. I honestly felt afraid in many situations. Something that has restored this without compromising my beliefs has been the study of Aikido - pretty much the only martial art I found based on self defense and principles of peace. I feel more personally secure while also knowing that avoidance is the best policy. As I studied Aikido I guess I realised that the best part of the training was that if I actually had to use the skills I had already failed. That failure was so much worse than any illusory feeling of cowardice.

To that end I utterly agree with KittyT's sentiment that polite and non confrontational language is often the best way to defuse a bad situation. In the words of Wilde

“A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.”

Self control and wit should be our hallmark and self assurance without arrogance our legacy. Most of all there are never any situations that call for bad language - and I don't mean the odd expletive. Real bad language is that which treats others without respect. Treating other with respect always says more about me than it does about the recipients willingness to reciprocate.

Good God! This is obviously got me a little philosophical! Apologies for my little essays moral overtones.

*Yes - my home town of Melbourne still has trams.

Wow sir, thats a heavy story. Sorry for what happend to you with the 6 guys in the park. Im glad you know Aikido now, im sure that you would be able to handle yourself now against those cowards. Aikido is a "soft art" because it redirects energy toward the aggressor. Its not like the "Hard Arts" (Karate, Taekwon Do, Muay Thai) that go head to head...attack and attack..theres isnt a flow like in "Soft Arts" (Ninjustu, Aikido, Gung Fu). In "Soft Arts" its more attack and defend which reflects the Taijitu. Im also with you on avoiding fights, violence should only be used as a last resort and unfortunately some people only comprehend violence.

 

[Bourbon Guy]

"Why don't you tell me what you thought I said, and I'll tell you if that's correct". Take it from me, this never goes down well

Hahahahahahaha! No, I expect it doesn't. If this is the tone you generally take with people, it should be no surprise that they regularly take offense.

Perhaps you could ask a close friend or relative to be completely honest with you and tell you specifically what you are doing that offends everyone you come in contact with so that you can change it. Friendly clue: it is not the rest of the world; it is you.

I hope you work this out. Life should not be this difficult for you.

 

[docneg]

I'm beginning to feel much better about the whole thing

Perhaps I can make you feel even better. First of all, I believe every one of your stories. I have experienced nearly all the incidents and attitudes that you describe, throughout my life. Because I rarely go out anymore, I don't have people physically jumping me like they used to. These days I mostly experience inexplicable lies and passive-aggressive manipulations from people whom I assumed were real friends (but who, of course, weren't). I'm finally becoming expert in detecting these behaviors and quarantining those people so that they cannot continue to affect me adversely.

But for most of my adult life, I attracted violence and defended myself physically numerous times. I have never been in a "fight", which I define as two egos pitted against each other. But I certainly defended myself a lot. Typically, it was two or three (nearly always three, for some reason) barbarians who singled me out for quick violence because of my small stature, clothes, well-scrubbed appearance, or combination thereof. Rarely did any verbal confrontation ever occur; the violence would just erupt.

The reason I am able to write about it is that I have trained in old-style (non-sport) Okinawan Karate for 42 years, which is more than enough to cancel out any reluctance to engage in actions that are not part of your natural personality.

In one example, three punks grabbed me while walking to my car after a movie. They tried to crush my skull with a metal pipe, without a word exchanged. I kicked one, the second ran, and third swinging the pipe at my head got a broken neck for his trouble. He died. I got one broken bone out of it. But it wasn't my head.

Another time I intervened when a pimp was beating one of his girls on a street corner. He pulled a knife. I got a number of small cuts on my hands and a small stab wound in the abdomen. I took particular pleasure in flattening him. But it was a very intense encounter. A little more force on his part and the knife would have entered my abdominal aorta and I wouldn't have made it anywhere for help.

There were times when I was pleased to be mugger bait, because it meant that they weren't going to have the opportunity to try it on some other person who had no defense. I never felt like a barbarian or even a fighter. Remorse for those I hurt in self-defense? Not a smidgen.

In many old cultures, the warrior class was the nobility. Their behavior, speech, dress, etc., was expected to be refined. The Kshatriya of India were eminent philosophers and holy men. The Samurai of Japan were expected to write poetry. Odd that we now have the idea that sophistication means the absence of combative arts, and that our fighting forces will mostly be drawn from the less privileged classes. Interesting, isn't it?

But the real reason you should feel better, Lear, is that I spent quite a bit of time and money exploring why I attracted these people/incidents. One psychotherapist told me, "You are a sociopath magnet!" He has an intriguing theory.

He believes in good and evil as entities (I'm a bit more of a relativist, myself), and his take on this is that the evil ones are attracted to, and have to shoot down, the virtuous ones. He says because I am fair-minded, honest, trying to uplift others, non-confrontational, etc., etc. (I won't further enumerate what he sees as my sterling qualities as I am already embarrassed), that they continually have to undermine me if not outright attack me. He says I am "one of God's special people". Of course one always appears special when one is paying $150 an hour to the therapist! There is an intuitive correctness to this thinking, though. I suspect he is at least partially right--about my character being a factor, that is. I highly doubt I am one of "God's special people".lol

So, by transfer, you may be one of God's special people also. I really do think that the very existence of our travails is not just a pointer to lessons we need to learn, but also a confirmation of our essential worth, and quite possibly some higher commission that we are destined to fulfill. If I have prevented someone who deserves even less than myself from having his/her head bashed in, I think that is not a bad life after all.

 

[Diamondback]

Well said, Doc--I subscribe to similar views myself, although this may be from a lot of time spent studying the various ancient Warrior's Codes. Nowadays it's not always those employed in one field, anyone can find themselves called to the Warrior's path to defend those around them. "Egalitarian Bushido"?

----------------
Now playing: Taylor Dayne - Original Sin (Theme from the Shadow)
via FoxyTunes