What is pouncing powder or finishing powder?

[DRB]

Gary White gave me some powder to put onto my bone (off white) hat to fix problem blemishes.

Aureliano, I asked him what is was.
He said it is a trade secret. One that he mixes himself. He keeps secrets but also teaches hats at some school around there. Go Figure.

I suspect that it is nothing more than Fullers Earth powder (powdered Magnesium Aluminum Silicate) with a little powdered dye of the same color of the dyed hat body. I just ordered some and intend to try it to see if my hunch is true. Get it at drug stores or ebay.

Fullers Earth description:
Fullers Earth
AKA: whitening clay

Active Compounds: silica, alumina, iron, lime, magnesia, oxides, water
Background: Fullers earth is a type of clay that has many uses. It has properties that allow it to absorb oil. This has made it useful in industry where it's been used to soak up automotive oil and grease. It's also been used as a component of cat litter.
The name of fullers earth comes from the people who were the first to capitalize on its use. Laborers who processed wool used it to soak up the oil from the sheep. These workers were called "fullers" and that's where the clay gets its name.
While fullers earth is often use in industrial work, it can also be very useful for the skin. It's used in masks to help absorb oils and prevent acne. In order to use fuller's earth for these applications, it should be part of a special blend. Do not attempt to use the clay that's available for industrial use.
Applications: Lightener/Oil Absorption
Fullers earth is primarily used to promote healthy skin.
Oil absorption: Fullers earth can be added to facial masks and used to remove oils from the skin.
Skin lightening: Fullers earth can be used to lighten the skin.
Description:
Fullers earth is a mineral clay that's found abundantly in the world.
Fullers Earth Dosage:
Fullers earth can be applied to skin when mixed with other minerals. Follow the manufacturer's instructions on the product label.
Safety:
There is no negative information available for fullers earth. Consult your health care provider before beginning use of any herb.
You can see a picture of Fullers Earth here:

This is the powder that GW gave me, he wrote on the bottle "Bone Finishing Powder"
It looks like this:

It is very very fine. If you dab your dry finger onto the powder it will stick to your finger.

 

[DRB]

I have tried the Scout spot remover in the past with devastating results on my brown hat. I will never do that again. Maybe I did it wrong. I threw it away (not the hat).

Maybe all custom hatters should give their customers a small bottle of finishing powder that matches the hat that they purchased from them. Hmmm, there's an idea!

 

[DRB]

Can someone "in the know" elaborate on what is in pouncing powder? I am assuming pouncing powder is the same as finishing powder.

 

[buler]

I guess I'm not sure why you would need this? In the other thread you said "Gary gave me a life time's worth of pouncing powder should I ever encounter any mishaps that need to be covered up. I thought that was nice of him. "

Did he explain what a mishap was and how would you define "cover up"?

B

 

[barrowjh]

Use of these powders is described on pages 54 - 56 of "Scientific Hat Finishing and Renovating" (1919) that is often offered for sale on Ebay as reprints (bound copy) of the original. To quote, under the heading 'Finishing Powders and Grease' on page 54:
"In working cheap coarse hats or hats that show mottled and streaky color, powders serve a purpose at this stage. With fine hats, finishing powders are not used."
It does not describe the composition of the powders, but describes using them in cheesecloth bags, and then use a grease lure made from duck cloth filled with cotton and melted-in cocoanut oil. Dust the powder onto the crown, rub it in with the palm of your hand, and then go over it with the lure.

Thanks for the tip on fuller's earth, I was not aware of it, and may experiment with it in the future. Generally, powders have gotten a bad rap here, primarily because they are often perceived as a cover-up for sub-standard felt. When new hats 'run' color onto your clothes in the rain, was it a lousy dye in the felt (not colorfast) or was it the finishing powder? During the recent decades when demand for fur-felt hats disappeared, some manufacturers (all?) saved on production costs by producing lower quality felt and then powdering it. As in 1919, when you pay premium price for a fine beaver felt hat, there better not be any darned powder in it. The use intended by Gary White, applied as a touch-up for spots (by the owner of the hat), is commendable, have no problem with that at all - the complaints were about routine use of powders in new factory production hats.

Personally, I like the FEEL of beaver felt, and the powders ruin that feel, IMHO, so I would not expect to make much use of such powders. The Scout's spot remover for light hats apparently has some silica in it, so it is truly only for very light (white) hats, and then you have a heckova time trying to 'blend' the spot out. I use the Scout's for dark hats on all colors, its more like a regular carpet shampoo, and then follow-up with a light naptha treatment for the entire hat (because there is no way to feather out a spot cleaning!).

 

[The Wiser Hatter]

For those who wish to read Scientific Hat Finishing and Renovating here it is online.

http://www.archive.org/details/scientifichatfin00erma

 

[DJH]

Nice find, Ed. Browsing the book in Kindle on my phone.

 

[The Wiser Hatter]

Yes I have it on my iPad at home the book has good basic business practices also.

 

[Aureliano]

Nice thread, Dennis. Pretty informative. I own a copy of the book as well, totally forgot about it!

 

[fmw]

For those who wish to read Scientific Hat Finishing and Renovating here it is online.

http://www.archive.org/details/scientifichatfin00erma

Thanks for the link. I downloaded it and read it. I was particularly charmed with the concept of warming gasoline on a gas or wood stove. Can't help but wonder how many hatters killed themselves doing that.

 

[barrowjh]

fmw, I use a canning jar, pint or quart depending on how much coleman fuel I think I will use. I boil water on the stove top, using two pans. I take one off and set the jar in it (loosen the lid!) and after the 2nd comes to a boil, I take it off and put the jar in it, put the 1st pot back on the eye, and so on until I have that gas very warm. I don't try to do this quickly, need to give the jar & gas time to absorb some heat. Warm coleman fuel, poured into the crown of a vintage hat helps pull grease out of the old crease lines and helps dilute the original shellac. Do this over a plastic tub outside, away from any heat source (or spark) and don't get any gas on the leather sweatband.

Obviously, this is not as effective as a full-service hatter that strips the felt of all materials and submerges it in a circulating naptha bath overnight, but it works reasonably well. You can find cocoanut oil in health food stores; some people cook with it. I'm looking forward to experimenting around with some fullers earth - there are a couple of hats in my collection that might benefit from that idea.

 

[fmw]

Wow. I don't think I'll get involved in that. The hatters do a pretty good job. Actually, I think it is cool that somebody is still doing it the old way.

 

[barrowjh]

I looked around on the web some more, and there are (at least) two other powders other than fuller's earth that might have been used in powdering hats - either chalk whiting powder or marble flour, mixed with pigment powders, might have been used. I presumed the fuller's earth because it has silica in it, but now I am not so sure - could different manufacturers (or different hatter's supply houses) used different powder compositions?

I think fuller's earth with pigment powders might be our best bet, but it is not too much of a stretch to imagine that the fuller's earth may have been mixed 'down' with chalk whiting (or marble flour?), then mixed with pigment powders to achieve desired color, that would be a likely powder also. Anyone else have any thoughts (or insights)?

 

[DRB]

For those who wish to read Scientific Hat Finishing and Renovating here it is online.

http://www.archive.org/details/scientifichatfin00erma

Thanks for the link! Fascinating and useful reading.
I just bought the book on amazon.com
Reading it online now :eusa_clap

 

[danofarlington]

I looked around on the web some more, and there are (at least) two other powders other than fuller's earth that might have been used in powdering hats - either chalk whiting powder or marble flour, mixed with pigment powders, might have been used. I presumed the fuller's earth because it has silica in it, but now I am not so sure - could different manufacturers (or different hatter's supply houses) used different powder compositions?

I think fuller's earth with pigment powders might be our best bet, but it is not too much of a stretch to imagine that the fuller's earth may have been mixed 'down' with chalk whiting (or marble flour?), then mixed with pigment powders to achieve desired color, that would be a likely powder also. Anyone else have any thoughts (or insights)?

I just use the same stuff I've always used on my powdered wigs.

 

[DRB]

I just use the same stuff I've always used on my powdered wigs.

hahahahahahahahahhahahahahhaha. Nice one!

 

[DRB]

I guess I'm not sure why you would need this? In the other thread you said "Gary gave me a life time's worth of pouncing powder should I ever encounter any mishaps that need to be covered up. I thought that was nice of him. "

Did he explain what a mishap was and how would you define "cover up"?

B

Buler, we did not discuss that. It was just assumed that it was for small discolorations. He told me to first try putting lighter fluid on a rag and dab it onto the hat, not rub.

 

[Dreispitz]

Dust in the wind

 

[DRB]

I finally got around to reading the latest Optimo Newsletter. In it he writes: "Using powders means they continue to put the byproduct of the hat into the hat."

Could it be that a hat of that same color is finely ground and sparingly mixed with another even finer product (fuller's Earth?) to penetrate the felt?

Or perhaps, the hat is finely ground and nothing added. Or perhaps, Graham (Optimo) did not mean ground up hat as a byproduct.

I agree that a beaver hat has a better hand without powders. I am just exploring ways to cover a spot. I am always wary of birds overhead.

 

[CH Sherr]

I was not conscious of it, and may try things out with it later on. Usually, grains have gotten a bad rap here, mainly because they are often recognized as a cover-up for sub-standard sensed. When new caps run shade onto your outfits in the rainfall, was it a awful dye in the sensed.