Waistcoat buttons and shirt studs

[AEF17]

At the risk of rendering myself annoying in black-tie matters, I had another question.

Before I ask, I should state that the venue at which I will be sporting black tie is a 1920's themed dance at a small swing dance club. The crowd ranges from late teens to mid-thirties, and I sincerely doubt that any of them are knowledgeable about how to properly dress when it comes to formal wear(just being realistic). Thus, I wonder, partly, why I'm even concerned about this.

I have been fortunate enough to find a peak-lapel dinner jacket with matching trousers from the early 1930's, and a black full-back waistcoat of a slightly earlier date that were both relatively inexpensive, in fine condition, and fit me. There is some minor peekage of the vest above the dinner jacket when it's closed, but I hope to have it open anyway. Plus, it's probably just a starter set, realistically.

My question:

The waistcoat has black buttons that are not able to be removed. I intend to wear a detachable wing collar for this event, and as such have a pique dress-shirt that I know is more applicable to white tie. I have an older set of mother of pearl studs and cuff-links that I've worn on the few occasions when I've been able to wear white tie (for vintage dances).

Is the rule that studs and waistcoat buttons must match a firm one? I've read that mother of pearl is to be worn with pique, and that is my only shirt option if I'm to wear the detachable collar. But, like I said the waistcoat buttons are black.

So, should I buy a black set of shirt studs/cufflinks or will I be able to squeak by using the mother of pearl studs with the black waistcoat?

Thank you in advance for your help, once again!

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

I don't know enough about formal wear to answer to your question. I guess the blackwaist coat with the buttons is fine but I am no expert at all. I would suggest you ask it again overe her in the Formal wear primer. Maybe you even find the answer if you just browse the 133 pages Some really knowledgable loungers did post there.

 

[Shangas]

I'm no expert, but I thought MoP studs and links were standard for Black Tie?

 

[AEF17]

I don't know enough about formal wear to answer to your question. I guess the blackwaist coat with the buttons is fine but I am no expert at all. I would suggest you ask it again overe her in the Formal wear primer. Maybe you even find the answer if you just browse the 133 pages Some really knowledgable loungers did post there.

Thank you, I did search this area, and found that smoky mother of pearl studs and cuff-links can be worn with black tie. Nothing about matching with the waistcoat buttons if you don't have anything else, but at least now I know and am apparently safe (as if the younglings at the dance will have the remotest idea...). What a helpful resource! Now I just have to purchase, at some time in the future, more proper mother pearl studs for white tie (oops!).

 

[Hap Hapablap]

Thank you, I did search this area, and found that smoky mother of pearl studs and cuff-links can be worn with black tie. Nothing about matching with the waistcoat buttons if you don't have anything else, but at least now I know and am apparently safe (as if the younglings at the dance will have the remotest idea...). What a helpful resource! Now I just have to purchase, at some time in the future, more proper mother pearl studs for white tie (oops!).

I would think that the idea of matching shirt studs with waistcoat studs is more important when they ARE removable. When the vest buttons are stationary, it seems like less of an issue. In terms of white MoP or black(ish), I was under the impression that black was for black tie and white for white, but I see old movies and period piece films that show white studs with black tie. Good luck finding waistcoat studs by the way. It took me YEARS! Most vendors/antique dealers/Etsy users don't even realize what they are (understandably), and miscategorize them.

 

[AEF17]

I would think that the idea of matching shirt studs with waistcoat studs is more important when they ARE removable. When the vest buttons are stationary, it seems like less of an issue. In terms of white MoP or black(ish), I was under the impression that black was for black tie and white for white, but I see old movies and period piece films that show white studs with black tie. Good luck finding waistcoat studs by the way. It took me YEARS! Most vendors/antique dealers/Etsy users don't even realize what they are (understandably), and miscategorize them.

Thank you; I'm actually more embarrassed that I didn't realize that there were two categories of mother of pearl studs. As to finding a waistcoat that will take studs, and then finding a set that has the additional studs for it, I'm sure that is something that I can look for in the future. I do see them upon occasion, and the entire process of assembling components of vintage formal wear can indeed be exhausting with the different searches one must enter due to the mis-labelling of items by vendors.

 

[Anthony Jordan]

To my knowledge black waistcoats with fixed buttons are perfectly correct for black tie, hence waistcoat button/shirt stud matching should not be an issue. Indeed I think that it would be a challenge to find a black waistcoat which took detachable buttons (which I suspect arose with white waistcoats as a practical method of avoiding damage to the buttons when the waistcoats were laundered and starched) although I am sure there are some out there.

 

[Rathdown]

Worrying about matching shirt studs and waistcoat buttons is nonsense. They don't have to match, and nobody who matters is going to take notice, anyhow. Same with your cuff links. If they happen to match your studs, fine. But if you want to wear a pair of discrete gold cuff links -- go ahead. Only the worse sort of middle class boor would say anything, and his opinion counts for naught.

Dressing with style is like setting a table. Things don't have to match; no one thinks any the less of a dinner party if the fruit sets don't match the rest of the cutlery, and the same applies to cuff links, shirt studs, and waistcoat buttons. Socks, however, are an other matter all together.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

I ... have a pique dress-shirt that I know is more applicable to white tie. ... I've read that mother of pearl is to be worn with pique ...

Good news for you: in the 1920s, pique-front evening shirts were, in fact, more applicable to black tie. Smooth-front (linen) evening shirts, starched to a high sheen, were more appropriate for white tie.

So ... onyx (or black enamel) or smoky grey (or pinkish grey) mother-of-pearl studs for pique-front shirts, and white mother-of-pearl (or white cultured pearl) studs for smooth-front shirts.

Is the rule that studs and waistcoat buttons must match a firm one?

Depends on which part of the world.


In the United States in the '20s, the answer is yes: because from around 1910 onwards, American evening waistcoats (both black and white) were made to accomodate detachable button studs -- and those button studs came from sets that included matching shirt studs and cufflinks.


In Europe, no: because in the '20s and '30s, European black evening waistcoats were still made with permanently attached buttons.

I did search this area, and found that smoky mother of pearl studs and cuff-links can be worn with black tie.

That's right. They can be either silvery dark grey or pinkish grey.



INCIDENTALLY ... I didn't invent the standards presented above, so please don't shoot this messenger. For educational (or humorous?) purposes only.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

I'm no expert, but I thought MoP studs and links were standard for Black Tie?

Depends on the color of the mother-of-pearl. White mother-of-pearl for white tie; smoky or pinkish grey mother-of-pearl for black tie.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

... I think that it would be a challenge to find a black waistcoat which took detachable buttons.

In Great Britain, yes. In America, no. In fact, virtually all vintage American black evening waistcoats from the 'teens through the '30s take detachable button studs.

 

[Edward]

I'm no expert, but I thought MoP studs and links were standard for Black Tie?

White / light coloured MoP for white tie; onyx black or smokey/ dark MoP for black tie. IMO, the metal both (as cufflinks, whether matching or not) should really be silvertone for after 6pm, but I've seen goldtone work equally well. I think goldtone studs look much better alongside goldtone cufflinks than the latter with silvertone studs, but really it's up to the individual. It's the sort of detail that very few of us will notice, and upon which it would certainly be social bad form to comment negatively.

Thank you, I did search this area, and found that smoky mother of pearl studs and cuff-links can be worn with black tie. Nothing about matching with the waistcoat buttons if you don't have anything else, but at least now I know and am apparently safe (as if the younglings at the dance will have the remotest idea...). What a helpful resource! Now I just have to purchase, at some time in the future, more proper mother pearl studs for white tie (oops!).

If the buttons are fixed on the wasitcoat, I'd be more inclined to think about whether they match the ones on the jacket than the shirt studs.

I would think that the idea of matching shirt studs with waistcoat studs is more important when they ARE removable. When the vest buttons are stationary, it seems like less of an issue. In terms of white MoP or black(ish), I was under the impression that black was for black tie and white for white, but I see old movies and period piece films that show white studs with black tie. Good luck finding waistcoat studs by the way. It took me YEARS! Most vendors/antique dealers/Etsy users don't even realize what they are (understandably), and miscategorize them.

Always remember, too, that real people back in the day didn't always stick hard and fast to the "rules" to which we now refer. Nor did movie costume people either: often for them it was about what was available in time and especially when on a tight budget, or even what they thought looked better on screen. Fred Astaire's white spats with white tie were a ridiculous faux pas by the "rules", but obviously his costume designer considered them a good idea as they drew attention to his feet while dancing. Not dissimilar to Michael Jackson' designer who many years later cut all Jackson's trousers too short in order that his stark white socks would draw the eye to his footwork.

Thank you; I'm actually more embarrassed that I didn't realize that there were two categories of mother of pearl studs. As to finding a waistcoat that will take studs, and then finding a set that has the additional studs for it, I'm sure that is something that I can look for in the future. I do see them upon occasion, and the entire process of assembling components of vintage formal wear can indeed be exhausting with the different searches one must enter due to the mis-labelling of items by vendors.

It's an easy miss if you're only familiar with the white MoP / onyx options which are all one tends to see available new nowadays.

To my knowledge black waistcoats with fixed buttons are perfectly correct for black tie, hence waistcoat button/shirt stud matching should not be an issue. Indeed I think that it would be a challenge to find a black waistcoat which took detachable buttons (which I suspect arose with white waistcoats as a practical method of avoiding damage to the buttons when the waistcoats were laundered and starched) although I am sure there are some out there.

In the United States in the '20s, the answer is yes: because from around 1910 onwards, American evening waistcoats (both black and white) were made to accomodate detachable button studs -- and those button studs came from sets that included matching shirt studs and cufflinks.


In Europe, no: because in the '20s and '30s, European black evening waistcoats were still made with permanently attached buttons.

I wondered was this partly to do with the evolution of black tie, bearing in mind that the Twenties was such a period of flux and the black tie "rules" that we now know didn't really evolve fully until into the Thirties? My understanding of the Twenties was that it was as common as not to see "black tie" being worn as effectively identical to white tie but with the simple replacement of the tailcoat with the dj? Did the stud-holed black waistcoat come first, later to be followed by the fixed-button option as black became the standard?

I did toy at one time with dying a white cotton pique waistcoat black for wearing with black tie, but the advice I was given was that it wouldn't "work", so I'm waiting until I can afford silk.... After years of objecting to them, I did a u-turn some time back on cummerbunds, but I still consider those to only really look "right" with a shawl collar.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Did the stud-holed black waistcoat come first, later to be followed by the fixed-button option as black became the standard?

No: the opposite. The fixed-button black evening waistcoat was the standard in both America and Europe until the WWI era. Then, for reasons unknown to me, American black evening waistcoats --which formerly were made in the same wool fabrics as the tuxedos they were worn with-- began to be made in satin or textured/patterned silks, and then in rayon as well. These black silk or rayon evening vests came with detachable button studs.

 

[Anthony Jordan]

All rather fascinating; thank you Marc!