Vintage Suitings: Discussions of, and sourcing modern equivalents, etc.

[Broccoli]

Does anyone have an idea on where to find good corduroy around 25oz (brown)? Also, would anyone advise against making a pair of cords as ones first trouser project? I figure it is better to start out with a work type trouser instead of beginning with a pair in fox flannel.

 

[Rabbit]

Brisbane Moss should have them, but I don't see the 22-25oz on their new site. There's a stockist in Stockholm listed here:

http://www.brisbanemoss.co.uk/distributors.asp

 

[Rudie]

There's also a German company by the name of Kindermann specializing in workwear fabrics, namely corduroy and moleskin. They have some ultra heavy all cotton cord. They send swatches upon request. I guess their Swedish agent will as well. http://www.cord-und-velveton.de/Kindermann/english/index.htm At least when ordering from them directly their prices are very competitive.

 

[herringbonekid]

Also, would anyone advise against making a pair of cords as ones first trouser project? I figure it is better to start out with a work type trouser instead of beginning with a pair in fox flannel.

definitely don't start with Fox Flannel.

 

[Broccoli]

Thanks for the recommendations, they will be put to good use!

definitely don't start with Fox Flannel.

Of course I wouldn't! But it's the goal. Would you say that corduroy has very different properties to a regular suiting fabric? I am thinking in terms of working with the fabric, is it a bad trouser to begin with if I wish to learn to make normal trousers? Does the deep pattern in the corduroy cause any problems or such?

 

[Two Types]

There's also a German company by the name of Kindermann specializing in workwear fabrics, namely corduroy and moleskin. They have some ultra heavy all cotton cord. They send swatches upon request. I guess their Swedish agent will as well. http://www.cord-und-velveton.de/Kindermann/english/index.htm At least when ordering from them directly their prices are very competitive.

I think I have seen samples of thier cloth and was very impressed by the range of weights and colours.

 

[herringbonekid]

I am thinking in terms of working with the fabric, is it a bad trouser to begin with if I wish to learn to make normal trousers? Does the deep pattern in the corduroy cause any problems or such?

cord is pretty easy to work with, but it still behaves differently to wool.
when you first try wool (after the cord) i would recommend using a cheaper (but good quality) wool before moving on to expensive ones.
you can sometimes find flannel by companies like Dugdale on ebay for £20 - £30 a metre.

 

[fashion frank]

Hey gang, I came across this site and found it very useful ,perhaps you will also .

http://costumereference.weebly.com/index.html

All the Best,Fashion Frank

 

[PeterB]

I wonder if any members can identify the type of weave in the attached image. My grandfather had a jacket in that weave, and I have been looking for the material.

 

[brendanm720]

View attachment 31525

I wonder if any members can identify the type of weave in the attached image. My grandfather had a jacket in that weave, and I have been looking for the material.

I do believe that this weave is called "barley corn". I think I've only ever seen this weave in tweed.

 

[Rabbit]

Don't confuse pattern and/or finish for weave. Tweeds and flannels are twill weaves, for instance. Flannel is named so for its finish, and because of that finish it's often very difficult to see the twill weave. A herringbone tweed is also a twill weave, but with the direction of the twill changing by 90 degrees with every row of the herringbone. The sometimes intricate patterns of tweeds can look like very complicated weaves.

Read this illustrated text from the old London Lounge for an overview of weaves. It's about shirtings, but applies equally to suitings.

 

[PeterB]

Thanks , I just found one similar, called Barleycorn weave. It was listed at Yorkshire Fabrics, I think, under "Jacketing". Now on a related note I saw that material sold as "Jacketing" is too soft for trousers as it bags easily. Any experience with that?

 

[Rabbit]

Barley corn is the pattern, the weave is still twill. Pet peeve of mine.

Most contemporary tailors will call tweeds with a looser weave jacketings. Some may even say that tweed in general, being relatively loosley woven by any standard, is suitable only for jackets. That's a very contemporary interpretation, just like claiming that tweed is "itchy". Sure, some tweeds are very loosely woven, and you can easily see through the fabric when held against the light. And yes, if the trousers get heavy wear they will bag. But it's tweed, it's supposed to take a beating, and it does that job very well. If you wear tweed trousers like you wear your town suits, I don't think you'll see them bagging, provided they're wide-legged (mid 20s to mid 50s cuts). The looser weave itself actually doesn't make the fabric softer, it's the general treatment of the fibers. Vintage tweeds like any vintage fabrics have a stiffness that is lacking in new cloths. I guess only the clothing mills would know why exactly.

 

[PeterB]

Sorry Rabbit, Barleycorn pattern, twill weave. I checked that link that you provided, and emerged slightly punch drunk with information. Thanks for the advice about tweeds / jacketing. I have noticed what you wrote about stiffness in the cloth, and always thought that old fabrics were stiffened artificially. I once had a 30s blazer that more or less stood up by itself.

What you say about wide legs -- I have mine cut very wide, tapering slightly at the ankles / cuffs, preferring comfort, and because I have funny shaped legs. So my trousers tend not to bag in the knees.

I must say, you fellows on this forum are a veritable gold mine, and I regret not having checked earlier. I am enjoying reading back posts, going back as far as about a decade, and building my knowledge.

 

[brendanm720]

Don't confuse pattern and/or finish for weave. Tweeds and flannels are twill weaves, for instance. Flannel is named so for its finish, and because of that finish it's often very difficult to see the twill weave. A herringbone tweed is also a twill weave, but with the direction of the twill changing by 90 degrees with every row of the herringbone. The sometimes intricate patterns of tweeds can look like very complicated weaves.

[facepalm]

Yes, I definitely used the wrong word. My apologies.

Barley Corn Pattern, Twill Weave.

 

[Rabbit]

Yes, that's a pretty comprehensive article about the shirtings. I got it from the old version of the London Lounge where a member had compiled some info into PDFs.

I have noticed what you wrote about stiffness in the cloth, and always thought that old fabrics were stiffened artificially. I once had a 30s blazer that more or less stood up by itself.

That might very well be it. The old fabrics sure feel like they have some stiffener in them. Whatever is in them doesn't come out with dry cleaning nor washing, so I guess it has to do with more than just a simple stiffener applied after the cloth is made. Aside from that, today's mills usually run their looms at breakneck speed which affects the fibers, and they don't store their finished fabrics after production for longer periods of time like they used to. I don't know in how many ways older fabrics were made differently from today's, but it seems there are lots of differences.

Edit:
I think my "tweed is twill" theory is out the window. I recall lots of Harris tweeds being clearly twill, but I just took a look at this mid-40s US-made jacket in what looks like Donegal or some similar flecked tweed. It's obviously not twill, but a basketweave (2x2 or whatever). Warp and weft have the same amounts of yarn, unlike a 2x1 twill, although of varying thickness due to the uneven yarn.

 

[brendanm720]

I think my "tweed is twill" theory is out the window. I recall lots of Harris tweeds being clearly twill, but I just took a look at this mid-40s US-made jacket in what looks like Donegal or some similar flecked tweed. It's obviously not twill, but a basketweave (2x2 or whatever). Warp and weft have the same amounts of yarn, unlike a 2x1 twill, although of varying thickness due to the uneven yarn.

Yes, not all tweed is twill... but most of it is. The "Donegal" style (whether it's woven in Donegal or not) is usually a plain weave (with, as you say, different thickness yarns in the warp vs the weft). There is also some plain weave that has the same yarns in the warp and weft, which results in a neat sort of marled look.

 

[PeterB]

Brendan, tweed would appear to be a life long study. I regret to admit that I used to regard tweed as clothes made out of old horse blankets. That has changed, obviously, in part on account of all you fellows on this forum. There are so many kinds, and it seems that only Harris has actually registered its trademark, so a woolly mess woven in Hong Kong weight 9 oz to the yard could be called tweed. Donegal has a distinct texture and appearance; so does barleycorn, which is definitely a weave, but I am not sure whether it is really tweed or just thick, rather rough wool. There seems to be a fine line between hearty worsted with a bit of nap, and tweed. Herrinbone, I presume, is a weave. You can find very tweedy herringbone, and very flat, rather "polished" herringbone.

 

[brendanm720]

Brendan, tweed would appear to be a life long study. I regret to admit that I used to regard tweed as clothes made out of old horse blankets. That has changed, obviously, in part on account of all you fellows on this forum. There are so many kinds, and it seems that only Harris has actually registered its trademark, so a woolly mess woven in Hong Kong weight 9 oz to the yard could be called tweed. Donegal has a distinct texture and appearance; so does barleycorn, which is definitely a weave, but I am not sure whether it is really tweed or just thick, rather rough wool. There seems to be a fine line between hearty worsted with a bit of nap, and tweed. Herrinbone, I presume, is a weave. You can find very tweedy herringbone, and very flat, rather "polished" herringbone.

There's a lot more to fabric than I realized when I first started getting into the swing of things. Very rarely do you see clothes made from old horse blankets.

There are a bunch of different tweeds. What makes fabric a tweed is that it is generally a woolen (vs worsted) fabric woven in a twill or plain weave, with any number of interesting patterns woven in, and it has a specific type of "hand" that is a little rougher than your other fabrics. It doesn't really matter where the tweed is woven, or what kind of wool goes into it (or even if it's all wool), but by and large, the better tweed fabrics seem to originate in the British Isles or Italy. Harris is the only Tweed protected by law (as far as I know), and is one of several "geographic" types of tweed (some of the others being Yorkshire, Shetland, and Donegal). You can also find tweed marketed by what kind of wool goes into it, and by the pattern. You can use thick yarn to make thick tweed, or you can use skinny yarn to make a thinner tweed. I have got three tweed sport coats, two are Herringbone (one is Magee Donegal Tweed, the other is a 70s/80s Brooks Bros generic tweed), and one is Donegal-style Yorkshire tweed (A. Moon) and these jackets are of the thicker variety (18-20 oz maybe?). I also have a lighter weight (15 oz?) Tweed Suit in a very narrow herringbone.

And you are correct, you can have Herringbone and Barley Corn patterns in any fabric done in a twill weave -- it doesn't matter what the fibers or yarns are. (i.e. Super 150's wool suiting, Denim, Cotton Drill, Linen, Serge, Gabardine, et cetera.)

 

[PeterB]

Brendan, like many other members here, you are a veritable mine of haberdashery data. The Donegal is a good weave, I think. Sterling Hayden wears a Donegal jacket in Kubrick's "The Killing", which was on TCM the other night.

Good for you, getting hold of those heavier jackets. I have just sent an old jacket of my father's (about 1955) to the cleaners, in a kind of light grey and brown weave -- a sort of tweedy pattern, but a worsted, if you know what I mean. It fits me, but the trousers are too narrow in the waist. The old man is a lot thinner than me. I asked him why he wanted to part with it, and he said he had worn it enough. I imagine it was second hand when he bought it, shortly after coming out of the army. I will wear it as a jacket, as it looks sufficiently tweedy / rustic to be a jacket, if you have never seen the pants.

It more or less stands up by itself, and has very narrow arm holes. If I can, I will take a snap shot of it. 60 years old already, and I plan to wear it until I am gone. If I lose enough weight this summer I may just fit into the pants, which are the right length (which makes my current shape frustrating). So to cut a long story short, the suit is not exactly tweed, and not exactly worsted. The fabric weight, I would guess, is around 18 oz. My grandfather's pinstripe suit, 1936 vintage, is about the same weight, but sadly too large for me.