The Vintage Tailoring Thread

[Baron Kurtz]

Yes, that would be useful. I have a tailor and cutter where they deal with some of the issues Nick describes in fitting the sleeve properly, and some worthwhile fixes. I'll have a look again and post scans if useful.

[EDIT]Thanks Nick. Ah yes, that's quite noticeable. I don't recall your other jacket sleeves being quite like that though? Remind me, is this from a pattern you've used before? Is the sleeve, and are the armholes, the same as previous of your jackets? As a first thought I'd say the "outer" sleeve is too big. If you rotate and rotate but there's not much change it suggests a problem of drafting/cutting rather than setting. But I'll sleep on it and have another look in the morning.

 

[Nick D]

Baron, I've not used this exact pattern before. I have made the single breasted version of this pattern, same company and period, and did not have this issue. I do not know if they drafted the patterns from the same basic block, but I assumed they did, which is why I blundered into this without cutting a muslin sleeve. It's also a reproduction, not the original, and graded up a size from the original. Maybe when I do the 36 the problems will go away (the drafting on the SB was actually pretty good). Very frustrating.

Here's the SB. Some issues at the front of the sleeve but good hang.

Another jacket from a vintage pattern (my second), with the fold.

 

[herringbonekid]

It seems like there was too much fabric in the sleeve, especially the underarm,

this looks like the problem to me. the under sleeve looks like its puddling. if you trim down the under armscye it should tighten it up.
i would also narrow the whole sleeve a bit. the wider the sleeve the more the excess fabric wants to drape somewhere, but sleeve width is a personal taste thing.

 

[Nick D]

i would also narrow the whole sleeve a bit. the wider the sleeve the more the excess fabric wants to drape somewhere, but sleeve width is a personal taste thing.

I agree about narrower sleeves. Should I take the seams in evenly at front and back?

 

[herringbonekid]

yes, a bit off each edge of the pattern.

 

[herringbonekid]

i would also trim down the outer head-front like this:

just my take.

 

[Nick D]

Well, I narrowed a sleeve. The folds are much improved, the hind arm is still fairly messy but not as bad. Movement is more restricted than it should be, I don't know if it would have been if I hadn't scooped out the sleeve cap but probably not.

After all this, I'm going to try an original 1930s draft for my next suit. I'm picking up heavier fabric for a mockup tomorrow, though my next projects will be a linen suit for my wife and some dress shirts for myself.

 

[Nick D]

i would also trim down the outer head-front like this:

just my take.

Thanks, HBK. That's approximately what I did, though by the end I don't have enough ease in the front of the sleeve. Eventually I'll end up with a sleeve that is fitted correctly!

 

[Nick D]

Here are the sleeves basted in. Not great, but I got the worst of the fold out.

The changes I made to the cap, unfortunately, now restrict movement despite the high armhole.

 

[Nick D]

Regarding drafts, I think I'll use one of these, both from '37. Both are for a 40 chest, so I'll have to change the scale (18 1/3" for 37" chest).

Three button. Not sure what the 2" waist disproportion is, I need to compare the two closely.

Two button.

Once I have a good fitting pattern, in the body and sleeve, I can use it to draft a pattern with peak lapels, a DB, and an overcoat pattern. I was hoping the fit on this would be better and I could use it, but the more I think about it, the better drafting my own sounds. I got some horrid upholstery fabric for a mockup this morning.

 

[Qirrel]

The changes I made to the cap, unfortunately, now restrict movement despite the high armhole.

This corresponds well with what I think caused the folds initially: too low crown height. A sleeve with a low crown will provide much more freedom of movement than a very clean, modern sleeve. That the fabric is lightweight exaggerates the problem with the folds.

From a german magazine. The necessary changes (unless you have enough material to recut the sleeves) are described in abb.1. (Shaded/black area to be cut off.)

Here is a less exaggerated version of the problem from an english book. (Photos 43-48 and diagram 3.)

 

[Qirrel]

You should also be careful with old sleeve drafts. I've had all sorts of problems with them, especially regarding crown height.

 

[Nick D]

Thanks, Quirrel. I did take away at the top of the sleeve, as indicated in the German article, which helped the folds, but it seems like it's a lack of ease at the front notch that is pulling at the chest when I raise my arms. I don't think I have enough fabric to fix that, or at least I'm not sure where it would come from without cutting new sleeves.

I'm going to try this sleeve draft first, not an old one: http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1303&hl=+sleeve++construction

The one thing I'm not sure on is seam allowance on those two lounge drafts above. I've read that T&C drafts from that period allowed 1/4" on all seams, although it doesn't look like it on the front edge in the diagram.

 

[herringbonekid]

A sleeve with a low crown will provide much more freedom of movement than a very clean, modern sleeve.

how so ? i thought most sleeves that are made for ease of movement have the excess in the armpit. e.g. shooting jackets, Fred Astaire's jackets for dancing in... but don't hang so cleanly when the arm is vertical.

 

[herringbonekid]

Thanks, Quirrel. I did take away at the top of the sleeve, as indicated in the German article, which helped the folds...

this is getting confusing. the English article above says to add more crown to counteract the folds, not take some crown off. both can't have the same effect.

 

[Nick D]

Two tailors, three different answers. Maybe it's two different problems which look similar? It does seem mine was cause by an excess of fabric, not a lack. Either way, it's clear the sleeve I'm working with was drafted poorly. I did get some more ease into the front of the sleeve, which didn't really help how much it drags the jacket up but does seem to relieve some of the stress on the sleeve. There's also the fact that the jacket's too big in the chest, which isn't helping.

ETA: It looks to me like the English instructions are increasing the height of the crown, but by narrowing it. The corners above D and C are removed, leaving a taller cap. The German one seems to be doing about the same thing, but also taking out on the under sleeve.

 

[Qirrel]

how so ? i thought most sleeves that are made for ease of movement have the excess in the armpit. e.g. shooting jackets, Fred Astaire's jackets for dancing in... but don't hang so cleanly when the arm is vertical.

Sure it can be done by adding to the undersleeve only, but the mobility in that case would not be as good as if the crown was lowered as well. By leaving the crown high, there will still be a lot of fabric bunching up near the crown when the arm is raised.

 

[Qirrel]

ETA: It looks to me like the English instructions are increasing the height of the crown, but by narrowing it. The corners above D and C are removed, leaving a taller cap. The German one seems to be doing about the same thing, but also taking out on the under sleeve.

The two solutions achieve the same thing. The main difference is that with the solution in the English book, the sleeves have to be taken apart and re-sewn to match at the notches.

 

[Qirrel]

Nick, did you try ripping the seam from front notch to back notch as the photographs in the English article show?

 

[herringbonekid]

Sure it can be done by adding to the undersleeve only, but the mobility in that case would not be as good as if the crown was lowered as well. By leaving the crown high, there will still be a lot of fabric bunching up near the crown when the arm is raised.

notice that in this picture of Nick raising his arms the tension isn't in the crown; it's in the area just below. the crown isn't affected by the arm raise:



none of these jackets of Fred Astaire's have a low crown. they all have a sizeable amount of wadding, in some cases almost a rope.
in three cases you can see his arm is well up but unrestricted by anything including the crown.