The Open Road Guild

[M Hatman]

Are you saying Bowen's Open Trail is not a production "Homburgish" Oen Road model?

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Well.....YES......with due respect.....
No. 1 It is not even labeled as an OR, so why you would even call it an OR I do not know. I even doubt it came in that configuration.....any ads for one? I think i do have a catalog listing or two and it does NOT look like that.
No. 2 it is no more a "homburgish" OR than my Eddie Baur 3X is........
No.3 A LOT OF HATS HAVE NARROW BOUND BRIMS, and they are not OR's either.....or homburgs...or a Statoliner.

Are all these "homburgish" OR's.......???
M
As addendum, pencil curl offerings for Western hats were pretty much gone by 1940.....that is outside of the "Tom Mix" offerings.......and some of the smaller proportioned "Wild Wild West" offerings of the 60's.....

 

[M Hatman]

Hey Jack, I believe the Open Trail is a entirely different model hat than the Open Road.

YES, It is an entirely differant model......

 

[Hurricane Jack]

No. 1 It is not even labeled as an OR, so why you would even call it an OR I do not know. I even doubt it came in that configuration.....any ads for one? I think i do have a catalog listing or two and it does NOT look like that.

If you "have a catalog listing or two" why would I need ads?

Concerning labeled as OR's, ask & ye shall receive. Labeled as a Royal De Luxe OR, I doubt that Walter's Men's Shop cut the brim & added the felted edge. But JMO.

Labeled a Royal De Luxe OR this one would appear to have a full width brim so it's possible it was re flanged & curled later. It would have to be examined in person to know for sure. But JMO.

There is certainly evidence that Stetson marketed the Hemphill for a while. It didn't sell very well as the east Texas boys were already modifying their OR's. Never the less it was offered for a short while. I have Churchill's version of the Hemphill. But JMO.

Unless you have the complete collection or access to Stetson records, the verdict is still out on some of these hats. But JMO, & someday I'll learn to keep my opinion to myself & stay out of these pissin' matches.

 

[Frunobulax]

Unless you have the complete collection or access to Stetson records, the verdict is still out on some of these hats. But JMO, & someday I'll learn to keep my opinion to myself & stay out of these pissin' matches.

Where's the fun in that?

 

[AbbaDatDeHat]

Lot’s of valid points in the arguments of this discussion or debate.
I think it is and always will be fatal when and if we ever pronounce “this is and what was” in the same context of most historical topics including hats. (Not that anyone has proclaimed that in this discussion).
As soon as we do, up pops a unicorn to keep us humble (and interested) like a black Homburgish Open Road or even a Boss Raw Edge with a brim binding.
A good point above is the probable custom work done by Stetson. How do we know it was a factory custom? We probably don’t without a build sheet.
I don’t know for sure but i’ll bet back in the day a fellow could get Stetson to do some unusual things to their hats if he plunked down the money. That only makes sense and i bet there are still hats around that were personalized for those who wanted something unique.
Curled brims aren’t rocket science and i don’t feel “change” a model but just personalize that model. I believe that, the easiest explanation to the Black Open Road and my Open Trail model. That black OR generated a fair amount of discussion around here when it surfaced prior to being sold.
Be well. Bowen

 

[dh66]

I'll just wade in and add this...to lend some merit to @M Hatman 's point. In this photo you can sort of see the discoloration, presumably a reaction from sweat and the leather of the sweat band inside, and the moth holes. I'm not sure this kind of stain would be easily removable, if at all, and obviously a good way for a repair shop to correct it would be with a wide ribbon. The only Borsalino in my collection is a 50s era Allesandria, and all the examples I have ever seen on the lounge are thin ribboned, like ORs. Mine has a wide black ribbon, doesn't even match the brim binding. I suspect it was added post-purchase. There was an operating hat repair shop here in Birmingham up into the early 00s. Scarce as hatters are these days, I imagine they were close to as common as shoe repair shops a half century or better ago, at least in sizeable population areas. Hell, these days it getting pretty hard to even find decent shoe repair. We live in an era of disposable consumer goods....folks just don't get stuff fixed anymore, and it's been that way for a good long while....but that is a whole other discussion for a different thread, I guess. I could easily see that grey stingy brim having been a hand-me-down that someone had converted at a repair shop for far cheaper than a new hat might've cost. It wasn't like today, when a new hat (admittedly probably not the finest new hat) can be had for cheaper than the cost of having one rebuilt.

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[M Hatman]

If you "have a catalog listing or two" why would I need ads?
Unless you have the complete collection or access to Stetson records, the verdict is still out on some of these hats.

I said I "think I have a catalog listing (for the Open Trail)......I have a LOT of catalogs, so takes time to go through...........and why ask for ads?......further validation that may offer more insight...
As a curator you do not go with the verdict at all unless it is PROVEN!! Speculation that something has NOT been altered is NEXT TO IMPOSSIBLE TO PROVE without concrete evidence (in this case, catalog offerings, ads, records) and until proven such speculation does no good and often is VERY MISLEADING to the public. As with Grandfathers Civil War Hat......it does no good to perpetuate the myth.
And YES, lots and lots of evidence of hatters (and cleaners) altering hats AND selling those same used hats as refurbished going back over a hundred years........
Some are even posted in my threads.......
I was not intending a "pissing match", just making open and reflective comments based on years of museum work........
Best to everyone....
M
PS I DO like seeing the variants, a LOT REALLY......I just suggested we be quite cautious in atributing them to being "factory varients" or in any way an unaltered or common offering of the manufacturer, in this case Stetson. Without evidence, to say something is wholy unaltered and origional after 70 plus years of existance is well....not quite academic. Heck, right here on the lounge we have MANY who are altering thier hats old and new......we have all even seen a 1920's fedora here that has been admitedly reflanged......at least once.
How many hats are being altered as we all read this? We just need a little perspective and dare I say it.....honesty in our appraisals of these goods.

From the 20's......or earlier.....a magic lantern slide.

 

[Rmccamey]

So it I reflange my Open Road is it not an Open Road?

 

[M Hatman]

So it I reflange my Open Road is it not an Open Road?

Not at all.....it is just not a factory varient from Stetson. And really, It would no longer be an OR as it origionaly was sold, as it WOULD be an altered hat, abeit, minimally altered (well, depending on the severity of the new flange). And lets face it.....it will no longer have the classic shape Stetson produced and intended. AND you prove my point...as someone down the road will buy it and swear it came from the factory just like that....
Though to many of us, the OR does look pretty cool with that pencil curl! There is just no proof Stetson did it.....
I think about this when poeple keep reblocking Strats to look more like OR's and OR's to look like Strats.... maybe we should encourage some sort of OR -Strat exchange for these people!!

 

[Rmccamey]

So if I get caught in a rain storm and the brim flattens out a millimeter or two, is it not an OR? Taking your argument to the extreme, the moment the hat left its first hat shop it would no longer be "as originally sold", whether it was altered by man or nature.

 

[J Williams]

Man I love this thread...

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[glider]

how about this, if you can look at a hat from 10 feet and tell that it is an Open Road then that's what it is, if you can't then it isn't anymore if it ever was.

 

[Frunobulax]

how about this, if you can look at a hat from 10 feet and tell that it is an Open Road then that's what it is, if you can't then it isn't anymore if it ever was.

I have many hats you would mistake for an OR, perhaps from 10 inches even; however, they're not even Stetsons.

 

[glider]

Well I was referring to conversions but if we are using the term O.R. to describe a hat style then it doesn't need to be a Stetson. It's like crescent wrench, a lot of adjustable tools are called a crescent wrench which are not made by crescent.

 

[Hurricane Jack]

Well I was referring to conversions but if we are using the term O.R. to describe a hat style then it doesn't need to be a Stetson. It's like crescent wrench, a lot of adjustable tools are called a crescent wrench which are not made by crescent.

The thread title The Open Road Guild would indicate that this thread is not about conversions, clones or hat styles, but rather a guildship or fellowship of Stetson Open Road hats.

 

[M Hatman]

So if I get caught in a rain storm and the brim flattens out a millimeter or two, is it not an OR? Taking your argument to the extreme, the moment the hat left its first hat shop it would no longer be "as originally sold", whether it was altered by man or nature.

PLEASE read my posts carefully!!!! I AM NOT saying your hat is not a OR. It just is NOT A UNICORN!!!!!!! or in other words an OR variant right from the stetson factory!!!!! I am ONLY REFERRING to these altered hats, flange changed, wide ribbon, brim cut......completely re-blocked.......when we discover these...THEY ARE NOT ALL UNICORNS from Stetson!!!!! NOW, am I clear enough?!?!?!?!?!?

As with grandfathers 1880's officers undress "Civil War Hat" just saying it is a Civil War Hat DOES NOT MAKE IT ONE!!!

FOR ONE LAST TIME...I have NEVER said your (or anybodies) OR is NOT AN OR. Even an altered OR was an OR at one time and in a way still is.....IT IS JUST NOT A STETSON FACTORY UNICORN!!!!!!! Alter your hat as you wish...........just do not advertise it as "Stetson made it this way".......when the brim binding is removed (as some have done), and the crown is completely reblocked and or resized, (as some have done), or the ribbon is changed out for a wide ribbon (as MANY have done), again, do not advertise it as a unicorn "from Stetson" (as MANY DO when they find these hats down the road). "It must be from Stetson" is not a good conclusion when so many alter their hats and those types of professional services have been offered...well ever since hats have been made, AND as we really do not know the true history of these hats over the past 70 plus years.....to arrive at the conclusion a hat has NEVER BEEN ALTERED is just not being honest with ourselves and others.

Just like my altered and COMPLETELY re-blocked and reflanged Dobbs Homburg (which still has the original tags and model) into a "whippet" clone, IT WAS NOT DONE BY DOBBS (as will probably be thought by SOMEONE when the hat is discovered years from now), neither have most, if not all of the altered Unicorn OR's been done by Stetson.

I am done.....serve your Unicorns as you may......... AND enjoy them for what they are, NOT, what you want them to be......as someone said earlier.....personalized hats are special too....

And for one last time, to be PERFECTLY CLEAR AGAIN....I NEVER said your hat was not an OR or would not be if altered......

Sorry if I am honest in my appraisals and hurt peoples feeling over their Unicorns......just show me the proof if you want me to buy in. The default is: until proven "IT IS ALTERED BY OTHER THAN STETSON" and that is the only honest answer really......

DONE!

PS: ONE LAST Clarification....I am ONLY ADDRESSING the general idea on this thread and others. That of : "this 70 year old hat I found HAS NEVER BEEN ALTERED, and MUST have came from the factory JUST AS IT IS NOW", "unchanged from it's virgin form"...THAT is what I take issue with. I guess I am just one who looks at something that is over 50 years (or much older) and don't assume it has NEVER BEEN ALTERED by at least one of it's owners. ESPECIALLY something as personal as clothing. I mean I personalize almost every hat I own. Heck, anything in open crown is immediately personalized when we crease it. AND "Back in the Day" where every town had hatters and cleaners and we did not just buy a new hat every year, MANY will have been cleaned and reblocked and altered (into, as the ads say, "the latest style") how can you think this never happened to this "unicorn" hat?

Now I AM Done!!!

 

[Frunobulax]

Well I was referring to conversions but if we are using the term O.R. to describe a hat style then it doesn't need to be a Stetson. It's like crescent wrench, a lot of adjustable tools are called a crescent wrench which are not made by crescent.

True, but an Open Road is a Stetson model, not Dobbs, Resistol, or anything else. Hence, we have an Open Road thread and another called The Other Open Roads, for the other brands.

That's kinda one of the evolved purposes of the FL.

I suppose we could just call them all "hats," and be done with it, too.

 

[glider]

I believe the correct terminology would be, That hat was an open road, not is an open road. Open Road is a style of hat manufactured by Stetson. The only thing unique about it in the Stetson line is the styling, the felt, ribbon, color, etc. can be found on other Stetson hats . If an open road is restyled and no longer resembles an open road then it isn't an open road, it was but isn't any longer.

 

[Bamaboots]

Open Road is a style of hat

Open Road is a model.

 

[Frunobulax]

I believe the correct terminology would be, That hat was an open road, not is an open road. Open Road is a style of hat manufactured by Stetson. The only thing unique about it in the Stetson line is the styling, the felt, ribbon, color, etc. can be found on other Stetson hats . If an open road is restyled and no longer resembles an open road then it isn't an open road, it was but isn't any longer.

Deja Vu.