The Bowler or Derby Hat

[mayserwegener]

Josh, Thanks! I really like this profile too. The one (Negretti) I wear the most has a similar block. Looking forward to cooler Fall weather and heavier felts!

 

[Joshbru3]

1920s Dobbs Derby

More detailed pictures in the "DOBBS DINER" thread.

 

[Joshbru3]

Early 1900s Stetson Select Quality Derby

More detailed pictures in the "Pre- 1940s Stetson dress hats" thread.

 

[mayserwegener]

Josh, Both of them are super. I really like the red liner in the Stetson. The Dobbs is in such fine condition. As I mentioned on the other thread really like bow work.

 

[Joshbru3]

Josh, Both of them are super. I really like the red liner in the Stetson. The Dobbs is in such fine condition. As I mentioned on the other thread really like bow work.

Thanks, Steve! The Dobbs is by far my nicest Derby. I just still can't believe the condition. It never ceases to amaze me when people find hats that are about 90 years old and they look brand new. Its like, where have these hats been all these years that they look as if they have been unscathed by time? I had to buy the Stetson, because it seems that anything in my size that says Select Quality these days, I wind up buying. I have so many hats, LOL.

 

[mayserwegener]

If I was a 7 I would need to attend Vintage Hat Buyers Anomos. Actually I am already a candidate at 7 3/8.

 

[bowlerman]

sweet ones!

 

[mercuryfelt76]

Josh you've got some serious hats.

 

[mercuryfelt76]

If I was a 7 I would need to attend Vintage Hat Buyers Anomos. Actually I am already a candidate at 7 3/8.

You're not wrong there pal. I think I'm slightly losing control of my addiction too

 

[The Wiser Hatter]

Yes in many ways being 7 3/8 instead of 7 makes it easier in that their are less choices. I would be much poorer with a 7 hat size. I have a budget on hats an keep with in it. It's fun to see all the hats on the forum but it does breed a bad case of want. I have had to learn restraint in hat purchasing.

 

[bowlerman]

Yes in many ways being 7 3/8 instead of 7 makes it easier in that their are less choices. I would be much poorer with a 7 hat size. I have a budget on hats an keep with in it. It's fun to see all the hats on the forum but it does breed a bad case of want. I have had to learn restraint in hat purchasing.

Teach me your ways of restraint. This must be why you are the wiser hatter!

 

[The Wiser Hatter]

It is not easy I have a fixed amount of money I spend each year and that is it. Till the in of August when the amount is reset. So every purchase is weighed on how important the hat is too me do I really NEED it in the rotation. You see a lot of turn over in people posting as they reach their hats needed and stop visiting here as the temptation to purchase is a great pull.

 

[Viseguy]

The Dobbs is awesome. It really is in amazing shape. Congrats on the find.

 

[HatsEnough]

The tale of the cool high derby 1890s or so

The hat belonged to W. H. Phelps, prominent businessman in the southern Illinois area in the late 1800's and early 1900's. He has his name written on the liner.

Well, the high top derby finally came in and it was in worse shape than the seller let on. Unfortunately, when she got here the whole sweatband (dry as a bone, too) was separated from the hat except for about a 2 inch swath that was still sewn in.

This, however, gave me an opportunity to take it all apart to see how it was made and to see if there were any tags or markings.

Here is the maker stamp on the silk liner:

If you can't read it, it says Romeiser's of Bellville, Illinois (it's down by St. Louis).

Inside with liner and loose leather sweat removed I found two stickers.

As you can see it is the old hatters union label, not the post 1934 version.

And here is the style sticker:

The way the liner was made was interesting. The silk is shorn up by a piece of paper in the crown. The pleated silk is actually sewn right to the paper. Then there was a paper collar around the base of the liner.

A good shot of the older style size sticker at the back of the hat:

And here it is on my son's head. See how tall this derby is? It is 5-1/2 inches tall with a heavily curled and dished brim. The brim is 2-1/2 inches long front and back and 2 inches curled on each side.

Since it was all fallen apart inside, I ended up having to hotglue it all back together. So, this one is not for wearing much. But since I pieced it back together, at least you can have an idea of what it looks like complete. Also, nothing is missing, so that is nice. And it isn't torn or dented (though the brim edging is a bit frayed).

Still, it is a pretty interesting piece and quite old for a felt hat. Not too many of these tall derbies still exist, I'd guess. We are used to the lower variety, but these late 1890s tall ones are quite far and few between at this late date.

In fact, it reminds me of the one (shape-wise) that famous Old West gunslinger Bat Masterson wore in the late 1800s.

 

[mayserwegener]

Interesting! Could you find any info on Romeiser's? I notice the paper model tag has R. & T.

 

[Lefty]

 

[bowlerman]

Wow, HE! That's still a pretty cool find. I really like the height, shape, and brim width/curl. Is there no pencil roll at all? Very interesting piece.

That photo of Bat Masterson is what inspired me to start on my own bowler quest, and have yet to see anything that comes close to that brim in just about every aspect.

I have a couple high derbies that I enjoy an awful lot, one of them proclaimed as a Bat Masterson replica. Truth be told, the brim isn't even close. It looks like a monster truck in comparison to the one in your photo, and it isn't really a D'Orsay curl, either.

I also remember inquiring (pre-order) about the possibility of shortening the brim, and the hatter responded adamantly that it would just not look right and the balance would be completely off. I let it go, because after all he was the professional. Frankly, however, I continue to disagree.

Don't get me wrong-- I still really like the hat and wear it fairly regularly, but it is simply not that hat. It is probably for that reason that I started collecting them in the first place--- still searching for that hat!

I thought I saw a similar brim in the background of delectans' recent Optimo outing photos, and at one point I found a hatter who claims to do all these older stylings, but his website only shows pencil sketches of them...

Here are my three attempts at getting close to the iconic Bat Masterson derby styling (different colors, of course), all from different hatters (these shots were taken over a 3-4 year span, but I think you'll see what I'm talking about):

 

[alanfgag]

A very cool and interesting piece. The union label is slightly different from the one in my Panama (1930's I think) and appears to be missing the printer's union bug. Perhaps that can help in dating. 1890's does seem entirely possible.

 

[HatsEnough]

Lefty

Wow, great info! That will add to my hat history very well. Thanks for that.

Alan

Good comparison on the union label. It does seem that mine is an older version, doesn't it, likely before they started putting that union bug on? Now is that union bug on yours the bug of the printer's union that printed the stickers?

Yours:

Mine:

Bowlerman

You are right, that is close but seems much less delicate than my original. Yours seems heavy and clunky even, but close to the Bat Mastetson versions.

On mine, there is no curl at the end of the brim. The whole brim is arched very wonderfully, but the edge is still flat. It looks to me like the one Masterson is wearing in the photo I posted above is the same way. I think what may seem like a curl is actually just the ribbon edge.

Also, yours has a brim that is the same size all the way around, doesn't it? Masterson's and mine have a brim sorter on the sides and longer in front. The width of your brim is what makes it seem so heavy compared to how delicate mine looks like, I think.

 

[buler]

Its also possible that your union label is a counterfeit. If you read thru some of the old (late 1800's - early 1900's) publications on googlebooks, there is discussion of counterfeiting and fakes of union labels, makers labels, etc.

Great hat, btw!

B