Tatton Baird Hatters

[Rmccamey]

Not sure Brent would want to stir that pot but I would be interested in TBs general criticisms; pouncing, sewing, choice of leathers for sweats, bindings...

“I was most surprised at Chandler’s willingness to critique other hatters without any solicitation. He’s a man of definite opinions. He wasn’t rude, but he didn’t pull punches.”

Ok, Brent, @deadlyhandsome... that’s twice you mentioned how he offers up his perspectives on other hatters. It HAD to be good!!! Of course you’ve piqued our interest! Please don’t leave us hanging here! In the spirit of the season, what did he say, and about whom did he say it?! Just between us...
MY lips are sealed!!

 

[Yahoody]

One hat maker commenting on another's hat making? Quality of the conversation is about to plummet imo.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Yes, I realized another hatter's price list on this thread was inappropriate so I deleted that post. Sorry about that.

No worries. I just didn’t want someone to stumble onto the tread later and be confused. Maybe it’s due to my ow proclivity to get easily confused.

 

[suitedcboy]

I was kidding (not about spending time deciding on which hat). There are some aspects that can be judged rigidly but a whole lot of parts of this craft are subjective as is evidenced by many conversations on here.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

“I was most surprised at Chandler’s willingness to critique other hatters without any solicitation. He’s a man of definite opinions. He wasn’t rude, but he didn’t pull punches.”

Ok, Brent, @deadlyhandsome... that’s twice you mentioned how he offers up his perspectives on other hatters. It HAD to be good!!! Of course you’ve piqued our interest! Please don’t leave us hanging here! In the spirit of the season, what did he say, and about whom did he say it?! Just between us...
MY lips are sealed!!

Yep, spill it. We'll keep it under our hats. We'll have to spend a bit of time figuring out WHICH hat of course.

One thing I was reluctant to mention was that he was partly responsible for training a certain Venice Beach hatter whose name I won’t let cross my lips.
He does not think much of those hats or the hatter’s skill, but agreed that he’s made a successful business out of it.

 

[ChicagoWayVito]

I have to disagree with you on this. I’ve never seen a western felt from Winchester that wasn’t stiffer than I wanted it and the hatters didn’t add any stiffeners to them. I think you and I just have different definitions on what a non-stiff western felt is. I’ve asked several hatters if they could get me the non-stiff western felt that I want and all of them have said it isn’t possible. I’ve even had a hatter contact Winchester for me and Winchester told them that they don’t make the less-stiff felt I’m after. It’s not a dig on Winchester, the majority of the western market wants felt that is stiffer and less dense than what I want.

I am fairly certain that Winchester would be willing to make a western felt with less stiffener in it if two conditions could be met: 1) Minimum order of 36 hat bodies 2) The can fit the special order into their production schedule

I suspect the hatters were told that they would have to order 36 hat bodies and that turned them off. It is the same with special colors. I wanted them to try and produce the old black cherry color. The reason the black cherry color changed was due to the dye no longer being available, so they had to get a new supplier and that changed the color profile. They say they would like to have that color as it sold well but with the dye no longer available and their own problems with consistency on the custom colors they produced in the past for other hatters they probably don't want to spend the time to research it.

There is also truth to what @Yahoody mentions about the hatter causing the felt to stiffen. I can make the dress felt get closer to the western if I apply too much heat to it. I singe my hat bodies and one time I was like that was great, I should singe it again. So I did it twice and that actually hardened the felt. Lesson learned don't burn the hat more than once. The same goes for using an Iron or the brim press that I have which is a large iron and that is why when I use the press the felt is only in there for 3 minutes, if I were to forget about it in the heated press for 30 minutes it would be cardboard stiff.

It is a mix of both the manufacturing and the hatters preparation. It is definitely better if the amount of stiffener was addressed during manufacturing. I have to wonder if wet blocking a western would help? By wet blocking I don't mean just spraying some water, steaming and then stretching but rather soaking the hat body in hot water for about an hour, wringing it out and then blocking with still wet. Just curious of the hot water and soak time would allow for some of the stiffener to leach out or not.

 

[ChicagoWayVito]

One thing I was reluctant to mention was that he was partly responsible for training a certain Venice Beach hatter whose name I won’t let cross my lips.
He does not think much of those hats or the hatter’s skill, but agreed that he’s made a successful business out of it.

That's funny, now the second hatter that I have heard that has said they had helped train that same Venice Beach hatter. JW was the other one. Anyway, I thought Gregory Westbook (R.I.P.) was primarily responsible for that hatter.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

That's funny, now the second hatter that I have heard that has said they had helped train that same Venice Beach hatter. JW was the other one. Anyway, I thought Gregory Westbook (R.I.P.) was primarily responsible for that hatter.

Chandler was the shop manager at JW Hats when JW was still with us. I’m sure it was in his capacity at JW that he did the training.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

I am fairly certain that Winchester would be willing to make a western felt with less stiffener in it if two conditions could be met: 1) Minimum order of 36 hat bodies 2) The can fit the special order into their production schedule

I suspect the hatters were told that they would have to order 36 hat bodies and that turned them off. It is the same with special colors. I wanted them to try and produce the old black cherry color. The reason the black cherry color changed was due to the dye no longer being available, so they had to get a new supplier and that changed the color profile. They say they would like to have that color as it sold well but with the dye no longer available and their own problems with consistency on the custom colors they produced in the past for other hatters they probably don't want to spend the time to research it.

There is also truth to what @Yahoody mentions about the hatter causing the felt to stiffen. I can make the dress felt get closer to the western if I apply too much heat to it. I singe my hat bodies and one time I was like that was great, I should singe it again. So I did it twice and that actually hardened the felt. Lesson learned don't burn the hat more than once. The same goes for using an Iron or the brim press that I have which is a large iron and that is why when I use the press the felt is only in there for 3 minutes, if I were to forget about it in the heated press for 30 minutes it would be cardboard stiff.

It is a mix of both the manufacturing and the hatters preparation. It is definitely better if the amount of stiffener was addressed during manufacturing. I have to wonder if wet blocking a western would help? By wet blocking I don't mean just spraying some water, steaming and then stretching but rather soaking the hat body in hot water for about an hour, wringing it out and then blocking with still wet. Just curious of the hot water and soak time would allow for some of the stiffener to leach out or not.

I would have been sure in my certainty that you can’t get there with any modern Winchester felt, but this summer I received a Gannon that seemed impossible. That Gannon is sooo different from my earlier Gannons. The felt was incredible; I was completely blown away. I was absolutely sure such a hat was not possible using modern Winchester felt, but the proof is in hand. This was a dress felt, but now I’m unsure what’s possible.

 

[Yahoody]

Just curious of the hot water and soak time would allow for some of the stiffener to leach out or not.

In general yes a water soak will make a softer hat if you're using Winchester 100% beaver. Done it many times. As you have mentioned the trick I found from my own experience is how hot the water and how long the soak. Heat will continue the felting process, as you already know from firing a felt.

 

[Yahoody]

now I’m unsure what’s possible

Now that the camel is finally under the tent . Might be worth a look around.

Merry Christmas!

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Now that the camel is finally under the tent . Might be worth a look around.

Merry Christmas!

My looking around has me in possession of hats from 11 or more custom western hatters and so far they have all been similar disappointments. I’m looking, but I’m not sure where to go. I have Gannon making me two westerns using 100% nutria felts and I’m excited to see how those turn out. My first nutria custom was from VS and it was as stiff as Winchester’s beaver. My second was from Phoenix and it’s smooth and thinner, but still that overly stiff felt that I don’t prefer. The hat body that Gannon is working on right now was less stiff to begin with so I have high hopes.

Do you have a recommendation on where to get a custom western hat that isn’t the common Winchester stiff felt?

 

[Yahoody]

Brent, sorry I'm likely no help there. I took to building my own hats after being dismayed at what one got for the time and effort in a commercial western hat. Even what some assume to be the "best" western hats. Experience (working felt for the last 50+ years) tells me the only thing lacking in a Winchester beaver felt is a hatter willing and able to build you the hat body that you want. If you know how to build a hat, "smooth", "thin", "soft" are all possible. One just has to be willing and able to make the effort to fulfill what your asking.

If I unable to build my own and wanted the hat you describe (and was willing to pay for it) I'd start by asking Rodney Allison at North Valley Hat Co. what he thinks of "your ideal felt". But I am also loyal guy. If Gannon will make you a western hat and I see no reason why he can't. I'd stick with him and see if he can duplicate the feel of your previous "grail" felt. Good luck! Let us know how it all turns out.

 

[belfastboy]

I am fairly certain that Winchester would be willing to make a western felt with less stiffener in it if two conditions could be met: 1) Minimum order of 36 hat bodies 2) The can fit the special order into their production schedule

I suspect the hatters were told that they would have to order 36 hat bodies and that turned them off. It is the same with special colors. I wanted them to try and produce the old black cherry color. The reason the black cherry color changed was due to the dye no longer being available, so they had to get a new supplier and that changed the color profile. They say they would like to have that color as it sold well but with the dye no longer available and their own problems with consistency on the custom colors they produced in the past for other hatters they probably don't want to spend the time to research it.

There is also truth to what @Yahoody mentions about the hatter causing the felt to stiffen. I can make the dress felt get closer to the western if I apply too much heat to it. I singe my hat bodies and one time I was like that was great, I should singe it again. So I did it twice and that actually hardened the felt. Lesson learned don't burn the hat more than once. The same goes for using an Iron or the brim press that I have which is a large iron and that is why when I use the press the felt is only in there for 3 minutes, if I were to forget about it in the heated press for 30 minutes it would be cardboard stiff.

It is a mix of both the manufacturing and the hatters preparation. It is definitely better if the amount of stiffener was addressed during manufacturing. I have to wonder if wet blocking a western would help? By wet blocking I don't mean just spraying some water, steaming and then stretching but rather soaking the hat body in hot water for about an hour, wringing it out and then blocking with still wet. Just curious of the hot water and soak time would allow for some of the stiffener to leach out or not.

I wonder that as well. I have dyed two hats and the process of leaving them in the hot water/dye ( just under the boil) for an extended period has softened them very nicely. This is on my list of things to try as an experiment.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Brent, sorry I'm likely no help there. I took to building my own hats after being dismayed at what one got for the time and effort in a commercial western hat. Even what some assume to be the "best" western hats. Experience (working felt for the last 50+ years) tells me the only thing lacking in a Winchester beaver felt is a hatter willing and able to build you the hat body that you want. If you know how to build a hat, "smooth", "thin", "soft" are all possible. One just has to be willing and able to make the effort to fulfill what your asking.

If I unable to build my own and wanted the hat you describe (and was willing to pay for it) I'd start by asking Rodney Allison at North Valley Hat Co. what he thinks of "your ideal felt". But I am also loyal guy. If Gannon will make you a western hat and I see no reason why he can't. I'd stick with him and see if he can duplicate the feel of your previous "grail" felt. Good luck! Let us know how it all turns out.

I’ve had a few hatters pounce felts down to the shellac core trying to get them thin enough. I’m sure that these hatters have have have done all they could. I have no reason to doubt these hatters were willing to go to any effort to make me the felt that I wanted and with thousands of builds to their names they have the skill and specialized tools. I would never disparage these craftsmen by staying they aren’t willing to put in the time or effort. When everyone else is saying it can’t be done, or at most saying it might be possible but no one has been able to do it yet, and you are the only one who is sure it’s possible I don’t know what to say.

I think this goes back to our earlier discussion on felt where you commented that the felt I was after was inferior (floppy brim blow up by the wind in the movie clip). I don’t see this being possible with modern Winchester, but I’d love to be proved wrong. I can say that no one else here on The Lounge has been able to achieve those results with Winchester felt, and there are many of us who would love to have it if it were possible.

 

[ChicagoWayVito]

My looking around has me in possession of hats from 11 or more custom western hatters and so far they have all been similar disappointments. I’m looking, but I’m not sure where to go. I have Gannon making me two westerns using 100% nutria felts and I’m excited to see how those turn out. My first nutria custom was from VS and it was as stiff as Winchester’s beaver. My second was from Phoenix and it’s smooth and thinner, but still that overly stiff felt that I don’t prefer. The hat body that Gannon is working on right now was less stiff to begin with so I have high hopes.

Do you have a recommendation on where to get a custom western hat that isn’t the common Winchester stiff felt?

It might be worth reaching out to Tim (Purebeaver on Instagram) seeing what he has left in Fepsa felt and sending that off to a hatter of your choice and see what becomes of it. At this point send it to Gannon so you have a good comparison. The downside is that the felt is going to cost $180+

 

[deadlyhandsome]

It might be worth reaching out to Tim (Purebeaver on Instagram) seeing what he has left in Fepsa felt and sending that off to a hatter of your choice and see what becomes of it. At this point send it to Gannon so you have a good comparison. The downside is that the felt is going to cost $180+

My nutria hat bodies cost me $150 so another $30 isn’t bad. I’ll consider it.

 

[belfastboy]

It might be worth reaching out to Tim (Purebeaver on Instagram) seeing what he has left in Fepsa felt and sending that off to a hatter of your choice and see what becomes of it. At this point send it to Gannon so you have a good comparison. The downside is that the felt is going to cost $180+

The last time I checked Tim still had a good selection of the Fepsa beaver. His stock of Fepsa rabbit/hare is still about 2 months away.

 

[belfastboy]

My nutria hat bodies cost me $150 so another $30 isn’t bad. I’ll consider it.

I really like the Nutria body, it blocked really well and I consider it on par with my Fepsa beaver in terms of feel. It will be interesting to see how it pounces. I think it was in Art's video where he talks about the craft of pouncing and taking it as far as you can without hitting the shellac core......the bitch is you don't know til you get there.

 

[Yahoody]

Inferior? Yes sir, for my own use a soft felt is inferior. And seemingly inferior to the entire western hat market as well. Folks vote with their wallets. You and I have the same old discussion once a month. You buy them. I generally just build my own.

You keep telling us all dozen or your hat makers say it simply isn't possible using modern felt.

Now you have a hatter that built you something close to what you want...and you're still here, "I was absolutely sure such a hat was not possible using modern Winchester felt, but the proof is in hand."

Good luck with all that!