Sweatband Anomaly...(?)

[jimmy the lid]

Well, at least it appears to be an anomaly vis-a-vis vintage Stetsons -- but, as a more general matter, I'm not so sure...

Here's what I'm talkin' about...I have one vintage Stetson (my Amon Carter/Shady Oak OR) that has a sweatband that is not stitched together at the back of the hat (under the little bow, where the two ends of the sweat meet). Instead, the two ends are secured together by a piece of tape in back of the sweat, providing for a seamless effect. This photo gives you the idea:

I have one other lid with this same feature, a vintage Borsalino:

Baron Kurtz has pointed out in another thread that he has vintage Borsalinos where the sweat is joined in the above fashion.

So, this leads to a number of questions. First, is the "tape" method of joining the sweat tied to a particular time period? For example, was this a technique that, by definition, was used in the '30s/40's, for example, or did it extend beyond that time period? Did particular manufacturers use this technique, whereas others did not? What was the underlying rationale for this technique -- was it aesthetic? functional?

Any thoughts?

Cheers,
JtL

 

[Dinerman]

All my '20s hats have this feature. Borsalino d id it for a good long while, though I'm not sure when they stopped.

 

[Spatterdash]

Tape?

What, did they glue a strip a fabric behind it? If so, very classy. Ya gotta admit, it has an elegance. I wonder how practical it would be to do that today, and what sort of tape you would use. Can we see a shot of the tape at the back of the seam?

I'd love to know what sort of adhesive was used.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Another Borsalino i just looked at - probably late 1940s by the style - has this feature. (also has the red paper tag). As does a [probably] 1950s Spanish "Matador-style" hat (made by M. Gonzalez in Jerez) i own.

The glue hatters - and most other professions from what i understand - used was generally vegetable resin.

bk

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Tape?

What, did they glue a strip a fabric behind it?

A strip of paper, from what i can see.

bk

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

Interesting in hindsight. I just had a Borsalino briefly in and out of my possession, and it had a sort of adhesive tape thing just like this. Also a blue printed liner.
When I put it up for auction on FOFAS, someone grilled me with questions and thinly veiled accusations about how I had perhaps mis-handled the sweatband while looking for tags and had then had to repair it. So I had to defend myself and explain that it was this way when I found it, but I had no idea myself that it was supposed to be this way from the factory.
Ya learn something new every day,....

 

[Spatterdash]

Interesting.

Paper tape, likely with a vegetable resin.
That's the sort of thing that could be replaced with ease if it came loose during steaming or reblocking.

Hmmmmm!

 

[Dinerman]

Here are some examples I have of sweatbands with that kind of seam. I have more, but these were the ones at hand.

Panizza (Italian- 1960s)

Reiser (German- late 1950s)

Borsalino

Borsalino

Viking Impermeable (European [Italian?] 1950s/1960s)

Borsalino

 

[Dinerman]

1920s Optimo-crown Panama

1920s/early 1930s optimo crown straw

1920s boater

1960s Brasiliano (Italian)

1930s "The Sportster"

Pilgrim cowboy hat with pencil-curl brim

 

[jimmy the lid]

All my '20s hats have this feature.

I love it when a guy can use a phrase like that. :eusa_clap

D-man -- thanks for taking the time to post those photos. Very instructive.

So, it seems that the "taped sweat" was a rather common feature on Euro lids. It also seems that this technique certainly was prevalent during the pre-war era.

I wonder how prevalent this technique ever was on U.S.-manufactured lids?

Anyone else care to weigh in?

Cheers,
JtL

 

[Brad Bowers]

I've seen an early-1930s Dobbs with said feature. Seems like it was a cloth tape, and I was amazed that the glue had not dried out over the decades.

I've been looking for something similar, but can only find iron-on cloth tape, and that runs the risk of shrinking the sweat. And who knows how long it would actually hold?[huh]

Brad

 

[carouselvic]

I have a old Stockbridge boater with this feature. The top edge of the sweatband is also turned back on its self (like a unsewn hem).

 

[Spatterdash]

Brad,

I remember vintage tape in my grandmother's house. She kept a roll near a jar of paste for packaging. The tape was paper, almost like drywall tape. It had that sort of texture and strength to it. You didn't tear that stuff off the roll, it needed to be cut with scissors. Whether they still make that sort of tape for home use, I've no idea.
For cloth, you'd probably want strength as well as a good weave for holding the paste. I'm wondering if linen strips would be reasonable.

Guess I need to start looking into early 20th century paste and tape. Weird where this hobby leads you sometimes.

 

[AlanC]

Could you use thin leather strips like the sweat band itself, maybe with hide glue?

 

[Spatterdash]

Wouldn't even really thin strips of leather affect the hat size?

BTW, I think my grandmother's paste was simple wheat paste until she started using elmers. Dad said she called her paste "book glue", and he is convinced it would hold leather and fabric just fine once it had cured.
I'm think Elmers basic glue-all is a better choice. It's the choice for liners already, and Elmers on a scrap of grosgrain might do the trick. Won't damage the leather, easily replacable.

 

[carouselvic]

Hyde glue is made for wood and is very brittle when dry. Two things that will make it fail are heat and moisture. What I have had great luck with is a product called Tear Mender made by VAL-A CHICAGO. It is made for cloth and leather. It is like a rubber cement for fabrics.

 

[bolthead]

Well, at least it appears to be an anomaly vis-a-vis vintage Stetsons -- but, as a more general matter, I'm not so sure...

Here's what I'm talkin' about...I have one vintage Stetson (my Amon Carter/Shady Oak OR) that has a sweatband that is not stitched together at the back of the hat (under the little bow, where the two ends of the sweat meet). Instead, the two ends are secured together by a piece of tape in back of the sweat, providing for a seamless effect. This photo gives you the idea:

I have one other lid with this same feature, a vintage Borsalino:

Baron Kurtz has pointed out in another thread that he has vintage Borsalinos where the sweat is joined in the above fashion.

So, this leads to a number of questions. First, is the "tape" method of joining the sweat tied to a particular time period? For example, was this a technique that, by definition, was used in the '30s/40's, for example, or did it extend beyond that time period? Did particular manufacturers use this technique, whereas others did not? What was the underlying rationale for this technique -- was it aesthetic? functional?

Any thoughts?

Cheers,
JtL

Jimmy, can we see the inside/backside of that seem?

 

[jpbales]

my Stetson Leghorn uses something similar in order to glue the liner to the inside of the hat:

I'd be interested in finding out what it is and if there's anything similar to it that can be found. I was thinking it might be possible to repair the hole in the pinch with some cloth and that glue:

I just don't want it to fray apart any further during wear.

 

[majormoore]

I have a case of those things, also they used smaller pieces to help hold the keeper on the bow/ribbon in place.

Major Moore

I've seen an early-1930s Dobbs with said feature. Seems like it was a cloth tape, and I was amazed that the glue had not dried out over the decades.

I've been looking for something similar, but can only find iron-on cloth tape, and that runs the risk of shrinking the sweat. And who knows how long it would actually hold?[huh]

Brad

 

[The Elizans]

Common on euro lids...

I love it when a guy can use a phrase like that. :eusa_clap

D-man -- thanks for taking the time to post those photos. Very instructive.

So, it seems that the "taped sweat" was a rather common feature on Euro lids. It also seems that this technique certainly was prevalent during the pre-war era.

I wonder how prevalent this technique ever was on U.S.-manufactured lids?

Anyone else care to weigh in?

Cheers,
JtL

Hello,

Well, I can confirm that all my pre-war English hats have this gluded fabric strip method of joining the sweatband seam. In some, it is a linen/cotton type fabric very thin, and soaked in glue (like a bandage) so that it is actually quite stiff. This is common to all the hats I have of the period in question (20's, 30's, 40's) without exception. However, I also have a Lock & Co and Lincoln Bennett from the 60's; these are both joined with a fabric strip also, so this does seem like a common European feature and I would not advocate using this distinction as a reference for dating vintage hats.

T.E.