Stetson 4X - HatCo customer service's reply

[jeff]

I was curious if they'd say what 4X means these days. Here's the email chain:

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Me:

Hi -

I'm curious what "4X" means for your fur felt hats? Is it 100% fur? Does the 4 indicate quality or amount of beaver fur?

thanks!

jeff

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HatCo Rep

Thank you for your inquiry. The X is a quality rating in Stetson western hats. The higher the X, the better quality the hat. It has to do with the fur mixture.

Thanks again, and we appreciate your business.

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Me:

Thanks (HatCo Rep),

Can you tell me the mixture percentage, rabbit vs. beaver?

Thanks!

jeff

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HatCo Rep

Unfortunately I can't - trade secret.

Thank you.
(HatCo Rep's Name)
Arena Brands, Inc.

 

[J.T.Marcus]

jeff, I asked the same question, and got the same answer. HATCO does claim, at least unofficially in the store, that XXX and higher is all fur; and the more X's, the more beaver and the less rabbit. I found one retailer that said XX HATCO's are wool. At present, it is almost anybody's guess how many X's would mean 100% pure beaver. This is partly a need to keep up with the competition, many of whom exceeded 10X, years ago.

 

[jeff]

Thanks J.T.

Makes you wonder, don't it? If they won't tell you the percentage, why bother putting any in at all?

 

[Not-Bogart13]

Maybe you should ask them if they make a 100% beaver fur hat...

 

[fedoralover]

Guys, at Peters bros. http://www.petersbros.com/RESITIOL_FELT/Default.htm

a 100% beaver cowboy hat in Natural color is $650. A 20X is around $400, so you know it's not 100% beaver, I had heard from a reliable source it is only 50% beaver. So when you are talking about anything less than a 20X it's not going to have any beaver felt of any significance. That's why they don't want to tell you. Remember that Resistol and Stetson are both Hatco names.

fedoralover

 

[J.T.Marcus]

Stetson does make a pure beaver (100%?) fedora. It's called the Pinnacle. I have one, and I love it. If you do a search for "Stetson Pinnacle" you'll find it. It is the only pure beaver fedora they presently make. Prices range from $285-$395.

 

[Not-Bogart13]

I've seen the Pinnacle. At that price, I'd rather give Art my business (again )

 

[jeff]

I've seen the Pinnacle. At that price, I'd rather give Art my business (again )

Here here (hear hear?).

Indeed, I've ordered a slightly modded Brooklyn (with a 5 1/2" crown, no edge binding) from Art - I can't wait!

jeff

 

[J.T.Marcus]

I've seen the Pinnacle. At that price, I'd rather give Art my business (again )

Frankly, so would I! I got my Pinnacle at the Outlet Store, for $48. Its only flaw? The name of the shop, stamped on the sweatband in gold, is not quite legible. Other than that, it's perfect. I'm not complaining.

 

[jimmy the lid]

So when you are talking about anything less than a 20X it's not going to have any beaver felt of any significance. That's why they don't want to tell you. Remember that Resistol and Stetson are both Hatco names.

I have to tell you, I find the whole "trade secret" argument utterly unconvincing and counter-intuitive. We're not talking about the formula for Coke here. The "trade secret" argument is only relevant relative to other manufacturers. To the contrary, we are talking about information that will allow the consumer to make reasoned decisions about the quality of the hat he is purchasing, and allow him to make some decisions about whether or not the price is appropriate in light of the purported quality of the felt. Hatco doesn't have to reveal the entire "recipe" for their felt. But, informing the consumer about whether or not the hat is a certain percentage of beaver fur would seem to be advantageous for all concerned, as it woud signify a higher quality product worthy of a higher price. To hide that information, under the guise of a "trade secret," seems to further the interests of retailers (and the manufacturer), who are then able to put a spin on the relative qualites of their lids, without having to reveal a single fact.

Cheers,
JtL

 

[carter]

Originally posted by J.T. Marcus
Stetson does make a pure beaver (100%?) fedora. It's called the Pinnacle. I have one, and I love it. If you do a search for "Stetson Pinnacle" you'll find it. It is the only pure beaver fedora they presently make. Prices range from $285-$395.

I picked up a 7 5/8 Pinnacle in Caribou at the Stetson Outlet Store last week. It's the 1st time I've found one in my size. Once I realized what it was, I decided to buy it.
Only problem with the hat was the liner was loose on one side. They fixed it while I was there.
Price was $59.00.

I like buying there as I have picked up some nice lids in a hard to find size. The folks working there are friendly as well. Plus they clean, steam, and bag your purchase. Tips are always welcome. Boxes are free at the register.

Some day I hope to find one of the new Cavanaghs there in my size. I've seen one but it was a 7 1/2.

:fedora:

 

[fedoralover]

Your are right Jimmy, the difference between a 4X hat and a 6X hat other than a big jump in price is in all probability some finer sandpaper on the finish and that's it. I have a hard time believing it's because it's a finer grade of felt. Look at some of the prices for 6X resistol hats, $250?? For another $55. you can get a custom 100% beaver from Art.

I've seen the raw hat bodies in Art's shop and it's amazing how the felt is transformed from the sanding process. The gray hat from Beaver Brands he worked on was rabbit felt and to begin with it almost looked like a brillo pad, but after Art was done with it, it really looked good.

fedoralover

 

[surely]

They may be subject to a law suite to divulge that kind of info.

 

[HATCO]

I have to tell you, I find the whole "trade secret" argument utterly unconvincing and counter-intuitive. We're not talking about the formula for Coke here. The "trade secret" argument is only relevant relative to other manufacturers. To the contrary, we are talking about information that will allow the consumer to make reasoned decisions about the quality of the hat he is purchasing, and allow him to make some decisions about whether or not the price is appropriate in light of the purported quality of the felt. Hatco doesn't have to reveal the entire "recipe" for their felt. But, informing the consumer about whether or not the hat is a certain percentage of beaver fur would seem to be advantageous for all concerned, as it woud signify a higher quality product worthy of a higher price. To hide that information, under the guise of a "trade secret," seems to further the interests of retailers (and the manufacturer), who are then able to put a spin on the relative qualites of their lids, without having to reveal a single fact.

Cheers,
JtL

Hi,

It truly is a trade secret what %'s we put in to each X.

Considering that there are 3 main ingredients in a felt hat, it wouldn't be too hard to deduce the rest of the %'s if we said this 6X is 45% rabbit... (I am not privy to the recipes so don't ask.)

XX is wool and it is marked on the hat box as wool.

There are XXX wool as well

4X and above are furfelt which means they are made from Rabbit, wild hare, and Beaver. It's true that as the X goes up so does the % of Beaver.

It is fairly easy (in my mind) to tell the quality and the material in our hats. I came from a non hat background and within a year am able to tell the qualities fairly reliably.

I can tell you that there an X is an X is an X. We do not fudge qualities. I've seen discussions about it. There was a hat that was being made were a lot of extra work went into it to get it made. The quality of the felt was 6X but the cost to make it meant no profit if we sold it at a 6X price. The company could have easily said it was a 10X and charged a 10X price. We didn't. Of course that doesn't stop other companies from saying their hats are 20X and selling them at half the price of ours... Of course their 20X has 0% beaver in it... and thats why it's half the price.

 

[jeff]

Hi HatCo, thanks for replying.

I can tell you that there an X is an X is an X. We do not fudge qualities. The quality of the felt was 6X but the cost to make it meant no profit if we sold it at a 6X price. The company could have easily said it was a 10X and charged a 10X price. We didn't.

Well, that really is the point here. All the talk about 4X, 6X, 10X is meaningless to the consumer if every hat maker has a different definition, and moreover won't share it.

Since you won't state how much Beaver is in a 4X, I have to assume that it's just for marketing purposes and that it's some infinitely small amount such as 0.1%.

In all honesty I'd rather see something that says "100% Pure Rabbit Fur" like Akubra does, than "4X" and have no clue.

Regards,

jeff

 

[J.T.Marcus]

Here's an idea. Why don't we just pass a law requiring the following label on all new hats, regardless of manufacturer?


_% SHEEP HAIR _% RODENT HAIR lol

 

[HATCO]

Hi HatCo, thanks for replying.



Well, that really is the point here. All the talk about 4X, 6X, 10X is meaningless to the consumer if every hat maker has a different definition, and moreover won't share it.

Since you won't state how much Beaver is in a 4X, I have to assume that it's just for marketing purposes and that it's some infinitely small amount such as 0.1%.

In all honesty I'd rather see something that says "100% Pure Rabbit Fur" like Akubra does, than "4X" and have no clue.

Regards,

jeff

Unfortunately that is the way it is. I myself am not a fan of the X system b/c it allows our competitors to assign a higher X to a lower quality hat. Much like the pearl industry there is no enforceable set of standards (like the diamond industry) to rate the quality of pearls...Retailers and the mainstream public demand the system though, whether your buying pearls or hats.

 

[HATCO]

Frankly, so would I! I got my Pinnacle at the Outlet Store, for $48. Its only flaw? The name of the shop, stamped on the sweatband in gold, is not quite legible. Other than that, it's perfect. I'm not complaining.

Wow I think someone put the wrong price on that hat....

You fell into some good luck on that one!

 

[J.T.Marcus]

Evidently, the X system is only demanded by buyers of cowboy hats. Why is that?

 

[jeff]

Unfortunately that is the way it is.

I don't think it has to be that way. It's all in HatCo's control - all it takes is someone with the gumption to do it.

Note that Akubra doesn't use the X system, and they seem to do just fine.

My suggestion here is to break the mold. Start over. Be a leader (the Stetson name certainly has the credentials to lead here).

Stetson & Resistol could take the initiative and start marking their hats by fur % weight.

100% Rabbit "The Standard"
20% Beaver / 80% Rabbit "The Premier"
100% Beaver "The Pinnacle"

I suspect the hat industry is just in a funk. They THINK they have to use the X system like its some law, but they don't. If anything - as you say, it HURTS you to use the X system since your competitor can call a hat 1000X, yet it's the same quality as your 4X.