So what separates a homburg from a fedora structurally?

[jskeen]

I've been wondering about this for a while, I know that Homburgs are usually center dent and the tight pencil curl of the brim, but really, a little steam and a flat iron will fix both of those pretty easily. What else separates a St. Regis from a whippet besides a name and some heated water? Are most or all homburg brims bound with the
ribbon narrower on top and most fedora brims bound symmetrically? Inquiring minds want to know

 

[Dinerman]

The brim flanging and generally the style of binding, in the same way that a cowboy hat and a fedora are separated by flanging and trim. I'm not sure "fix" is the right word. If you want a fedora, buy a fedora. Don't ruin a good homburg.

 

[suitedcboy]

The rolled edge of brim and the brim binding added that keep the edge curl in place. Homburg hat bodies are more heavily shellacked for stiffness in most brands. Homburgs are blocked with a higher crown than a Whippet but not higher than fedoras of the style popular in the thirties.

Due to the brim treatment a homburg ironed flat typical will have severe "snap" and often will not stay flat as the brim binding is stretched when you iron the brim flat and will try to contract again. If you remove the edge ribbon then brim will go flat with ironing.

The binding is sewn on to have wide edge on display with curled edge on most homburgs. There are a few homburgs you'll find with narrow rolled binding. Some fedoras are symmetric binding and some are reversed from a Homburg with the wider margin on top so it shows with brim snapped down.

If this a question to determine the ease of making a Hommie into a fedora then the answer is a solid maybe. Some will convert and some will resist all attempts. Stingy brim Homburgs are the least cooperative in my experience.

 

[mayserwegener]

As far as I know the Homburg name was not used in Germany or Austria (or any other Continental country) until after WWII. The name was used in America and England to describe the hat that Edward VII brought back from Homburg vor der Höhe, Germany. The company that made Edward VII's Homburg was PH. Möckel Hutfabrik of Homburg vor der Höhe. Edward VII's Homburg was a soft gray felt hat with a tall tapered crown. The binded brim was curled in what sometimes is called the German curl. The crown had a center crease and was worn without side dents. It wasn't considered at formal style hat at this time.

Here is King Edward VII (1841-1910) photographed six months after the Coronation (08/09/1902), at Sandringham. In this image, King Edward VII is seen wearing plus-fours and his favourite Homburg style hat.

In a America Fedora (a term I have not come across in any pre WWII German or Austrian hat trade paper or advertisement and most likely applies to the entire Continent) and Homburg style hats looked pretty much the same up to WWII. The Homburg became a formal style over time (also the crown shape and brim curl + stiffness varied). In Germany and Austria they (Homburg and Fedora) were commonly called Mode Hut (Fashion Hat) which is very generic.

The following two threads have some good information regarding the original Fedoras and Homburg style hats.

Fedoras in the 19th Century

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?48956-Fedoras-in-the-19th-Century

Fedoras, first decade of the 20th Century

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?49010-Fedoras-first-decade-of-the-20th-Century

I actually have a stiff felt hat made by PH. Möckel Hutfabrik of Homburg vor der Höhe from the time period of Edward VII.

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/14-mockel-hutfabrik/#entry674

What is interesting is they called all their hats "Real" Homburg Hats (this is an advertisement targeting English speaking markets).

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/14-mockel-hutfabrik/#entry628

 

[fedoracentric]

And to make matters a bit more confusing, in the late 1800s and early 1900s in the USA it was a pretty common fashion to have a soft felt fedora that looks at first very much like a Homburg but is not stiff at all. It may have the classic tightly curled brim of less than 2-3/8 inches, the ribbon bound edge with more on the outside of the curl than the inside and a single dent crown. But they are not stiff and weren't formal at all. They were common, everyday hats in many colors and resembled more the original hat as seen in the portrait above than the formal, stiffer Homburg we are used to seeing. They were worn in many situations except terribly formal in which case a top hat was preferred.

Think of one sort of like the number 1 and the number 12 in the ad below...



They were quite like a Homburg, but not quite as large, stiff, and formal.

Or think of the Seth Bullock hat...

 

[mayserwegener]

I am sure these soft felt curl brim hats (of varying stiffness, brim size and crown size / taper) are Euro based styles (same with the center / Alpine crease -> essential to the Fedora & Homburg). Look at this Austrian catalog (Weiche Weicher = Soft) of mine from about the same time period (notice no mention of Fedora or Homburg).

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/134-alois-pichler-hut-niederlage-wien/

 

[Mystic]

My soft felt Homburg with front pinches:

[/IMG]

 

[Big J]

Oh, I do like a good Homburg with a suit in winter.

 

[mayserwegener]

The hat that Edward VII wore was a soft felt hat but he didn't wear it with side dents. It's highly likely some versions were stiffer but they would still be consider soft felt hats.

Captain Frederick Pabst (Pabst Brewery, Milwaukee), 1902 (Notice the side dents) At the same time in Germany and Austria this would be called a soft felt hat (not a Homburg of a Fedora). It's highly possible this particular hat was made in Germany or Austria.

A man from Mainz, Germany about the same time period. This is a soft felt hat (what it would have been called in Germany at that time) worn without side dents.

John B. Stetson (1895) posted by Buler. The soft felts hats are the same as what you see in Germany and Austria at the same time period. That is where (plus other Continental sources) these soft felt styles came from.

Riga, Latvia 1896

Hanover - Linden 1900

 

[Daniele Tanto]

Steve has the right documents to prove that homburg is a "marketing" name of an European hat at he end of 19° century.
Became famous worlwide because a king wore it. Than this became a sort of trademark for that kind of shape, even if there were many rendition of this kind of hat in EU. Here in Italy the shape was named "Lobbia" after an aggression (1869) to a commoner (Cristiano Lobbia) that was hit in the middle of his melon with a bat and after that a Florence hatter called that kind of shape "alla Lobbia". It was a primitive form of marketing for this kind of hats.
What could be interesting is to recognize the various rendition of homburg that every "hatters school" put on the market during the golden era of hats. Here http://www.cappelleriamelegari.com/...ex&cPath=101&zenid=stu3juvqalm1e9tecihnoiajv3 there is a page of an Italian hatter of hats called "alla Lobbia"
It's one of my favourite shape for hats and I bought some EU examples that will appear in the next months.......

 

[mayserwegener]

The original Lobbia description would make it a stiff felt hat but now it's a soft felt hat (when did the change occur?). Homburgs were / are soft felt hats with a distinctive curl / flange (the Lobbia is slightly different). In Germany and Austria (pre WWII) I have never come across a name for these hats (like Homburg or Fedora). They are normally called soft felt fashion hats or something similar.

 

[bowlerman]

Interesting. I've never seen a stiff felt Homburg. I mean, the brim curl surely has some stiffener in it, but nothing close to a derby or modern western.

 

[mayserwegener]

Anton Pichler's "Comfortable-Hut" newspaper ad from 1897 (Graz, Austria)

Anton Pichler, comfortable hat!
Elegant, fine and practical Fashion Hat completely replaced the stiff and soft hat by the preferential
the design and development. Since the stiff brim in greeting is ideal while the top is nice and soft and supple.
This hat is 1000 times as recognized only comfortable to wear head covering is preferably made by me and can only
be purchased directly from me. Made with fine beaver materials and completely light fast colors.
In order I'd be the exact head measurement in inches.

 

[Nyah]

My interest in felt hats started with homburgs. I've never thought of them as stiff hats. The quintessential homburg, to me, is as soft as a fedora and, I see no reason for the style to be stiff. Bowlers originally had a reason to be stiff, if what I've read about those is accurate. Maybe some people are producing homburgs with a stiff treatment because, they don't really know why a hat is stiffened in the first place.

If you want a fedora, buy a fedora. Don't ruin a good homburg.

I couldn't agree more with that statement and, will add, that even a cheap wool fedora will look better than one cobbled from a homburg.

 

[fedoracentric]

By stiff, I was referring more to the brim than the crown. It cannot be snapped, holds its shape permanently and is often stiffer than a fedora's brim.

 

[mayserwegener]

I am not sure that was the case with early Fedoras (USA name). I think they probably had a similar brim stiffness but I don't think there any examples here.

 

[fedoracentric]

I am not sure that was the case with early Fedoras (USA name).

Seems to me that a look at photos of American civilians from between 1860 and 1900, a lot of the hats are soft including the brim (top hats and derbies aside). Also, brims at less than 2-1/2 were extremely common. And curled brims are very popular with flat brims less so. (Though all styles appear somewhere or another, granted)

 

[Nyah]

The fedora's flange is what allows its brim to be snapped. The flange of the homburg gives its brim a shape that can't be snapped. The brim of my homburg is actually just as soft as a fedora's.

 

[mayserwegener]

Seems to me that a look at photos of American civilians from between 1860 and 1900, a lot of the hats are soft including the brim (top hats and derbies aside). Also, brims at less than 2-1/2 were extremely common. And curled brims are very popular with flat brims less so. (Though all styles appear somewhere or another, granted)

What were called Homburgs and Fedoras in America were Euro style soft felt hats (see the Pabst and Stetson photos in this thread). I don't think there is anyway to dispute that. Also Edward VII brought the style to England from PH. Möckel Hutfabrik, Homburg vor der Höhe, Germany.

 

[mayserwegener]

The fedora's flange is what allows its brim to be snapped. The flange of the homburg gives its brim a shape that can't be snapped. The brim of my homburg is actually just as soft as a fedora's.

They looked very similar into the 1930s. In general what was called a Fedora at that time would be called a Homburg (or Homburg like) today. The brim and crown stiffness varied.