shrinking aero anyone?

[zhz]

"Time to work out, Girly Man!"

https://screen.yahoo.com/pumping-hans-franz-arnold-schwarzenegger-000000067.html

I need the right location to play that video...cant watch it in UK

 

[pak]

'And the band plays on'

 

[zhz]

Copied from Wikipedia leather:

"Tanning is the process which matches the protein of the raw hide or skin into a stable material which will not putrefy and is suitable for a wide variety of end applications. The principal difference between raw hides and tanned hides is that raw hides dry out to form a hard inflexible material that when re-wetted (or wetted-back) putrefy, while tanned material dries out to a flexible form that does not become putrid when wetted-back. Many different tanning methods and materials can be used; the choice is ultimately dependent on the end application of the leather. The most commonly used tanning material is chromium, which leaves the leather, once tanned, a pale blue color (due to the chromium); this product is commonly called "wet blue". The hides once they have finished pickling will typically be between pH 2.8 and 3.2.[citation needed] At this point, the hides would be loaded in a drum and immersed in a float containing the tanning liquor. The hides are allowed to soak (while the drum slowly rotates about its axle) and the tanning liquor slowly penetrates through the full substance of the hide. Regular checks will be made to see the penetration by cutting the cross-section of a hide and observing the degree of penetration. Once an even degree of penetration exists, the pH of the float is slowly raised in a process called basification. This basification process fixes the tanning material to the leather and the more tanning material fixed, the higher the hydrothermal stability and increased shrinkage temperature resistance of the leather. The pH of the leather when chrome tanned would typically finish somewhere between 3.8 and 4.2"

If my understanding is correct, the leather is more likely to shrink if the pH does not reach 3.8-4.2 when chrome tanned (CXL FQHH is chrome tanned leather right?). I don't know if this is the case or not, but I do suspect. It is much easier to discover the shorten in sleeve, but most people will think this is due the creases, the change in jacket length is not easy to discover, considering Dav's case as an example. Also, people who discovered the same problem may not on the forum, so, I don't have enough sample to make the conclusion. But by analysising all the possible situation, I would vote for this explanation.

 

[pawineguy]

Copied from Wikipedia leather:

"Tanning is the process which matches the protein of the raw hide or skin into a stable material which will not putrefy and is suitable for a wide variety of end applications. The principal difference between raw hides and tanned hides is that raw hides dry out to form a hard inflexible material that when re-wetted (or wetted-back) putrefy, while tanned material dries out to a flexible form that does not become putrid when wetted-back. Many different tanning methods and materials can be used; the choice is ultimately dependent on the end application of the leather. The most commonly used tanning material is chromium, which leaves the leather, once tanned, a pale blue color (due to the chromium); this product is commonly called "wet blue". The hides once they have finished pickling will typically be between pH 2.8 and 3.2.[citation needed] At this point, the hides would be loaded in a drum and immersed in a float containing the tanning liquor. The hides are allowed to soak (while the drum slowly rotates about its axle) and the tanning liquor slowly penetrates through the full substance of the hide. Regular checks will be made to see the penetration by cutting the cross-section of a hide and observing the degree of penetration. Once an even degree of penetration exists, the pH of the float is slowly raised in a process called basification. This basification process fixes the tanning material to the leather and the more tanning material fixed, the higher the hydrothermal stability and increased shrinkage temperature resistance of the leather. The pH of the leather when chrome tanned would typically finish somewhere between 3.8 and 4.2"

If my understanding is correct, the leather is more likely to shrink if the pH does not reach 3.8-4.2 when chrome tanned (CXL FQHH is chrome tanned leather right?). I don't know if this is the case or not, but I do suspect. It is much easier to discover the shorten in sleeve, but most people will think this is due the creases, the change in jacket length is not easy to discover, considering Dav's case as an example. Also, people who discovered the same problem may not on the forum, so, I don't have enough sample to make the conclusion. But by analysising all the possible situation, I would vote for this explanation.

Why cite Wikipedia leather when you could have just posted directly from Horween how the CXL FQHH is actually produced?? And, CXL is also vegetable re-tanned. This is just as bad as the previous speculation that Horween had abandoned their 100+ year old formula and were hiding that they now toggle dried CXL in order to increase yields. (but didn't want anyone to know)

 

[schitzo]

Pawineguy, we get that according to you any speculation suggesting that the way the leather was tanned may have had a connection to it shrinking is inadmissible on account of Horween posting a page to explain their CXL tanning techniques.

But with respect sir, in the open and inquisitive minds of educated members I suspect your objection to this line of speculation is more inadmissible in this debate than the speculation itself is, on account of there being no possible way for you to substantiate this die hard belief of yours that Horween are somehow beyond reproach. The leather on this jacket has shrunk. Not just this leather, other leather on other jackets from the same place has too.

Granted, it doesn't say so on that page from Horween that you hold so dear, but I think we are pretty much all agreed here that leather is not supposed to shrink. My understanding on this is that the industry standards, which align closely with the US military's, state that the leather should not shrink below temperatures of 97 degrees Celsius.

Perhaps rather than telling us what it definitely isn't down to, you might advance a suggestion or two on what it possibly could be down to? Because that it has shrunk is a stone cold fact

 

[dan_t]

So let me see if I have this right after what is it now... almost 300 individual posts...

You have a jacket that has shrunk.
You're not happy with this, but no-one can difinitively explain why - neither the manufacturer or any of the educated members here who combined, probably account for several centuries of high end leather jacket knowledge.

I'm taking a wild stab with this next bit as I can't actually find any references to the overall back length of your jacket (forgive me if it was indeed posted somewhere amongst the last 29 pages...)

Let's say that the back length of your jacket is in the vicinity of 26 inches (seems like a fair average for most jackets).
If the shrinkag is indeed 0.75 of an inch, this equates to an overall shrinkage of approximately 2.8%.

This is a hand made, artisian crafted, unique product constructed from natural materials (hide) which are subject to (by nature of the actual poduct) being different from any other hide and the jacket has moved across several geographies (just consider the atmospheric differences from Scotland to Beijing). To experience a 'change' in the product I would say would be a reaonable expectation. The question is how much 'change' is reasonable?
The question here is; is a 2.8% 'change' within a reasonable limit?

For most hand crafted products, particularly those made from natural material exposed to varying environments, I would conclude that a change as limited as this would be within expected tollerances.

Given that no-one has been able to answer your question to your satisfaction schitzo, perhaps the best course of action is to place the jacket in the 'for sale' section and be done with it.

 

[schitzo]

So let me see if I have this right after what is it now... almost 300 individual posts...

You have a jacket that has shrunk.
You're not happy with this, but no-one can difinitively explain why - neither the manufacturer or any of the educated members here who combined, probably account for several centuries of high end leather jacket knowledge.

I'm taking a wild stab with this next bit as I can't actually find any references to the overall back length of your jacket (forgive me if it was indeed posted somewhere amongst the last 29 pages...)

Let's say that the back length of your jacket is in the vicinity of 26 inches (seems like a fair average for most jackets).
If the shrinkag is indeed 0.75 of an inch, this equates to an overall shrinkage of approximately 2.8%.

This is a hand made, artisian crafted, unique product constructed from natural materials (hide) which are subject to (by nature of the actual poduct) being different from any other hide and the jacket has moved across several geographies (just consider the atmospheric differences from Scotland to Beijing). To experience a 'change' in the product I would say would be a reaonable expectation. The question is how much 'change' is reasonable?
The question here is; is a 2.8% 'change' within a reasonable limit?

For most hand crafted products, particularly those made from natural material exposed to varying environments, I would conclude that a change as limited as this would be within expected tollerances.

Given that no-one has been able to answer your question to your satisfaction schitzo, perhaps the best course of action is to place the jacket in the 'for sale' section and be done with it.

Hello Dan

Actually I liked Enough's explanation, it seemed plausible to me, and I would like to hear more from that guy. FYI it went from 25" to 24.25. On a jacket 26" long, for me, probably I could afford to lose that much. On this jacket, irrespective of percentages, I think more than can be tolerated has been lost and when you see the before and after shots I predict you will be able to see what I mean. Before seeing those, it's kind of difficult for you to comment, no? Though it's already evident that you do have a clearly defined stance here.

I hope you won't mind me saying so, but for a guy with 10 posts to pop up and give me the 'hurry up', in light of what's already gone before on this thread (I've already had it), does seem a trifle peculiar. With a whole new forum waiting to be discovered why the interest in me closing this particular discussion? The educated members with their several centuries of leather experience can draw their own conclusions.

As you've noted Dan there ae several explanations that have to date been put forward. Which one/s is/are applicable is of great interest to me, and I'm sure many others - in particular (myself included) those who might want to order this jacket.

Should we order a size up because the stitching will shrink it? Should we preoccupy ourselves with hide choice because some are more prone to shrinking? Or must we simply endeavour to avoid suitcases at all costs?

That last question incidentally, is related directly to the aero explanation - which in case you missed it in the 29 pages is that two creases caused by me packing it in a suitcase are responsible. Since you're here now, what do you think of that particular explanation? There is a video on here for you to look at before answering.

Sloane, Peter Mackin, and WDW - they don't want to answer that question. Will you? My inkling is, NO, you won't want to dwell on it either.. but hey I could be wrong. That I have a sceptical mind when I'm on here is to be expected and anyone who reads the 29 will understand exactly why. But, if my cynicism is misplaced in this instance then please forgive me for my posting style is the product of this environment

 

[nick123]

I feel many who watched your video will also question Aero's explanation. Looking at it, those creases pointed out to be the culprits look pretty benign. But at the same time, they work with leather all day, and I don't, so any kind of concrete accusation is out of place (for me).

 

[handymike]

Hey Schitz, Howabout I take your jacket?
The 24.5" is fine for me, and if the sleeves shrank 2" it'll fit me just right

 

[schitzo]

no probs Handy I can trade it for your Imperial. Interested? The sleeves are shorter, but I'm not sure how much, will measure for you later!

 

[dan_t]

Man, whether someone has posted twice, ten times or one hundred is irrelevant.
An educated person can read the entire post, without weighing in and understand the commentary from all involved.

Why do you have to take such a harsh & personal tone to many who have contributed?

You keep asking your questions and have yet to receive an answer that you are satisfied with. That's fine, but why jump down the throat of anyone who has a differing opinion to yours? I am not merely referencing your response to my post above either.

A clearly defined stance? interesting assumption on your behalf. Actually no, I do not. I am considering right now investing in one of these great horeshide jackets from Scotland and do have an interest.

You've interpreted my post as a 'hurry up'. Yet you readily admit this has been done before now by others. Why is this I wonder?

"which in case you missed it in the 29 pages " & "There is a video on here for you to look at before answering." &"My inkling is, NO, you won't want to dwell on it either..". Again with the accusatory tone, why? This does nothing to enhance your postion nor solicit a willingness to assist.

I have read every single post, seen each picture & even watched your home vid. I do agree that a reasonable person would expect that the natural creases in an elbow would reduce the overall length by a small amount. I also agree that the creases in the back of your jacket appear unlikely to have absorbed the claimed shrinkage. So what? That's my thoughts & this doesn't get you any further down the track to an outcome.

"my posting style is the product of this environment".
If you are unhappy with the responses people are offering freely in a publc forum, then I suggest that you either reconsider posting in the first place, or engage with the respondents in a different manner.

Don't you think that if there was a difinitive answer to your question, it would have most likely been found by now?

And as for being new here, that does not preclude me from owning several great jackets & wishing to continue to contribute to a great, supportive group who have a shared interest & up till now have been welcoming of new members.

I do wish you well in your endevour to find a response that you are satisfied with.

 

[handymike]

Touché, Schitz

(Dan, this is not in reference to your post)

 

[schitzo]

Man, whether someone has posted twice, ten times or one hundred is irrelevant.
An educated person can read the entire post, without weighing in and understand the commentary from all involved.

Why do you have to take such a harsh & personal tone to many who have contributed?

You keep asking your questions and have yet to receive an answer that you are satisfied with. That's fine, but why jump down the throat of anyone who has a differing opinion to yours? I am not merely referencing your response to my post above either.

A clearly defined stance? interesting assumption on your behalf. Actually no, I do not. I am considering right now investing in one of these great horeshide jackets from Scotland and do have an interest.

You've interpreted my post as a 'hurry up'. Yet you readily admit this has been done before now by others. Why is this I wonder?

"which in case you missed it in the 29 pages " & "There is a video on here for you to look at before answering." &"My inkling is, NO, you won't want to dwell on it either..". Again with the accusatory tone, why? This does nothing to enhance your postion nor solicit a willingness to assist.

I have read every single post, seen each picture & even watched your home vid. I do agree that a reasonable person would expect that the natural creases in an elbow would reduce the overall length by a small amount. I also agree that the creases in the back of your jacket appear unlikely to have absorbed the claimed shrinkage. So what? That's my thoughts & this doesn't get you any further down the track to an outcome.

"my posting style is the product of this environment".
If you are unhappy with the responses people are offering freely in a publc forum, then I suggest that you either reconsider posting in the first place, or engage with the respondents in a different manner.

Don't you think that if there was a difinitive answer to your question, it would have most likely been found by now?

And as for being new here, that does not preclude me from owning several great jackets & wishing to continue to contribute to a great, supportive group who have a shared interest & up till now have been welcoming of new members.

I do wish you well in your endevour to find a response that you are satisfied with.

Dan, since you like percentages let me tell you that the responses I am unhappy with constitute only a tiny percentage. For the record, I welcome any impartial observer's thoughts and suggestions on the matter, and that is whether they agree with me or otherwise.

In case you hadn't noticed it is becoming increasingly apparent that I am not the only one who is unhappy with certain contributions.

Given that you're new here you can't be expected to have a familiarity with the way that things on these pages tend to play out. How could you, you just got here.

Accordingly, if you study the 29 pages with an open mind you will see that this thread is educational in lots of different ways.

Re a definitive answer, I agree that one is unlikely to be settled upon but I do not believe that such a turn of events is an impossibility. If you do however, then of course you are free to stop reading (and posting) at any time.

IMHO, the best and most useful information comes from posters who are experts in their field, though as such these guys are obviously few and far between. Posts of which the gist is 'sell it and shut up' are, I find, on the whole less helpful and upon reflection, it would appear that these have in fact only served as oxygen for a fire they're intended to extinguish - ergo those are counter productive and ought to be reconsidered.

 

[Peter Mackin]

We still havnt seen the fit pics....but it's now sold so the problems over...the sale pages woulda saved tarnishing a makers reputation.....ordering the correct back length will solve this problem in future...

 

[schitzo]

We still havnt seen the fit pics....but it's now sold so the problems over...the sale pages woulda saved tarnishing a makers reputation.....ordering the correct back length will solve this problem in future...

Is this more 'Scottish banter'?

Who bought it?
I ordered it half an inch longer than initially suggested by the maker. Hello?

Fit pics are imminent PM hold tight! But.. according to you with reference to fit pics, and I quote "A thread without pics is worthless". Yet here you are again on a thread that is worthless!? Hello?? Why would you do that? When I think a thread is worthless I don't grace it with my presence, I don't even glance at it

 

[handymike]

Peter, sorry but I think you might have misunderstood our banter. Schitzo loves his jacket like I love my GW.

 

[Peter Mackin]

Peter, sorry but I think you might have misunderstood our banter. Schitzo loves his jacket like I love my GW.

Sorry handy...I mistakenly thought you had this jacket winging it's way to you..it is a looker .

 

[robrinay]

IMHO this thread is becoming a little too bitter and is being kept alive by comments a little more serious than mere banter. I'm going to take Schitzo's advice and not give it another glance.

 

[Superfluous]

'And the band plays on'

 

[schitzo]

IMHO this thread is becoming a little too bitter and is being kept alive by comments a little more serious than mere banter.

Yep, that's how the 'game' works. Ideally the thread gets closed, but if not, then the next best thing is for readers to be put off by the nature of what it ends up deteriorating into. Sad but true and played out many times over.

Anyone who respects the forum, the rules of the house and our reasons for being here, do feel free to chime in at any point. Personally, I think my dissent is entirely reasonable and has been presented in a respectable and fair way. What I have had to endure and deal with on these pages as part of that process however, is not, as I see it, what this forum is supposed to be about.

IMHO 'the many controlled by a few' is not a sustainable model for free and open exchanges on the topics that interest us, and personally I think this is an issue that affects these pages and that it's one worth speaking out over and worth resisting, even when to do so is likely to quickly become an unpleasant task.

Or you could just bury your head. Perhaps it will go away by itself? It's entirely your call chaps, I wouldn't dream of telling you what to do!



I will get these fit pic comparisons posted ASAP. Until then can we keep the thread clean please. And if that means quiet then so be it!