Pure beaver: adds life or takes away?

[gcollins]

Fellas:

I am a bit confused. Some hat makers will say that when you take away any percentage of beaver you reduce the quality of the hat--beaver being naturally softer, weather resistant, stronger and lighter than other furs.

But when I ordered a hat from Optimo, I asked Graham why they used a blend, and why not straight up beaver, he said that the blend makes the hat last longer.

Now these two statements are not contradictory or mutually exclusive....is there a bottom line? Is it cost that's really the issue?

thanks,
G

 

[Fedora]

I think it is the cost factor only. Sure, the blends can give you a durable felt by utilizing various underfurs, but we are still talking underfur here. Fur is fur is fur. Beaver is one of the most expensive furs out there. Every source that I have ever read says beaver is the finest material to make a hat of. But, it is expensive. Fedora

 

[Panamabob]

I don't want to put words into the mouth's of those in Chicago, but aren't they striving for the feel of a vintage (mercury) hat and the blends that they have are the closest feel that they can achieve right now?

 

[Jack Scorpion]

I'm curious, then.

If beaver is one of the most expensive furs out there... is there a fur out there that is more expensive and has uses in clothing (doesn't have to be hats)?

 

[Fedora]

I don't want to put words into the mouth's of those in Chicago, but aren't they striving for the feel of a vintage (mercury) hat and the blends that they have are the closest feel that they can achieve right now?

I don't think so. The first 3 Optimos that I bought were the rabbit/beaver blend, mostly rabbit. Very vintage looking felt, as it was pounced fine and thin. The price was around 4 bills. The following year they changed up their felt and went with a beaver/nutria blend. I never bought one of these but I think the price was basically the same. Whenever I bought my first Optimos, they offered a pure beaver hat, but it was 750.00. I think this pricing pretty much tells the story. For those that have handled a beaver hat, there is a sensory experience that stands out in the feel of the felt. Velvet like. You don't see many hats in the dress line made of beaver nowadays. It is more associated with the high dollar, top of the line westerns hats. But it was not always that way. My Stetson book shows some hats made as awards for the Stetson employees. They were dress hat, but pure beaver. As far as how the blends compare with the beaver in longevity of wear and toughness, there probably is not a dimes difference between the two. Beaver is not a magic felt, just a very fine felt that cost more due to where it comes from. Fedora

 

[jamespowers]

Originally posted by Jack Scorpion
I'm curious, then.

If beaver is one of the most expensive furs out there... is there a fur out there that is more expensive and has uses in clothing (doesn't have to be hats)?

I think the fur you are looking for there is mink. Beaver can be more expensive than your common mink but when you get into the special colors---mink is your highest commodity.
I am not sure if mink can or has been used to make felt hats but if it has I would like to see one. I might even buy a light colored one.

Regards to all,

J

 

[Marlowe]

"Pure beaver: adds life or takes away?"

I'm sure there's a dirty joke in there somewhere. And whether the punchline is funny or not probably depends on whether you've been divorced or not.

 

[Andykev]

Beaver vs. Hare? Let me barb you...

In "Conversation with George Rafferty", who started with Mallory in 1929, and is an "old master hatter".....From the book HAT TALK by Debbie Henderson, Ph D..

(in talking about fur, and quality of hats)

"...You blow the fur. You mix it first and put it in a mixer and mix it, some hare and different grades, and then you run it through a blower that has four, eight, twelve sections. They used to blow the fur out. It had a big screen. On a rabbit it's not all fur. There's hair too, and the hair didn't have any of those little barbs to felt. The fur has little barbs. The hair is dropped. The more you blew it, the finer the fur. On cheap hats, you'd probably use an eight-section blower, and on your finer hats you'd use a twelve. A beaver has no barbs at all on it. They say 100 percent beaver. You can't make 100 percent beaver. You have to use some other - we used to use hares' fur. Because hares' fur is the next best thing, the strongest. We used to mix hares' fur with beaver so it was solid."

That is why Optimo uses Hare and Rabbit and Beaver blends. In different percentages. And the felt I have received from them (10+ hats) has been the closest to "vintage" quality as found anywhere else.

I have held a Peter's Bros., an Akubra, Biltmore, and many more "modern" hats. I'm sorry, but the others are not the same quality as the Optimo.

 

[Fedora]

You can't make 100 percent beaver

The guy had madhatters syndrome. This is the info that is all over the internet.

The Prize winning Beaver Hat--Beaver was prized above all other furs for hatmaking. It felted readily into a dense, durable, waterproof felt with a silky sheen. The very best beaver pelts for hats came from "coat beaver"

And this.

Hat quality--The best hats had 9 to 12 ounces of pure beaver fur in them. As the demand for beaver hats increased, hat makers made them with less and less beaver fur. The beaver was mixed with all types of other furs- rabbit, mole, seal skin, wool, muskrat, etc. As little as 20% beaver was still called a beaver hat. These mixed fiber hats were called stuff hats. When the demand for a cheap beaver hat became even greater, the silk hat was created. In reality, this was a hat pasted up from anything from cheep wool felt to muslin and cardboard with a beaver nap applied to the surface.

So that blows the myth that you recited out of the water.


Here is some more.

Felting takes place by using animal fibers and tangling them using the scales that are present only on animal fibers.

This is from the same article. Beaver is just like the other animals. The underfur has barbs or scales. Of course this info pertains to early hat making, but the economics have not changed. Here is some more info.

European gentlemen wanted fine hats. Quality hats demanded the best felting material available. Beaver fur was an excellent raw material. Beaver fur is tight yet supple and will hold it's shape far better under rough wear and successive wettings than felt made from wool or other types of fur.

Now, if beaver had no natural barbs, (the barbs allow felting to happen), how did they make felt hats from beaver fur?

It says it clearly here. I quote.

beaver's fur consists of two kinds of hair-coarse outer or guard hair and downy soft underhair. Through a microscope, the underhair appears as slender strands studded with tiny barbs. This barbed characteristic results in superior felt. In an era when most occupations were outdoors and required sturdy headgear, high quality felt was important. For centuries, beaver felt was the primary material used in the construction of hats.

In fact, the reason that beaver was used and was in such high demand is that in order to use rabbit fur, the fur has to be carroted. Carroting not only made the fur easier to remove from the skin, but it also raised the scales up on the rabbit fur so it would make a strong felt. Beaver fur did not have to have this process, except to aid in the removing the underfur from the skin. The barbs on beaver fur is naturally raised already.

Why beaver? Because the under fur, or wool, or duvet of the beaver has tiny barbs on it which helps an animal that lives in cold water to trap a layer of insulating air against its body. This wool was chopped up and mixed with cat or rabbit fur because it held these slicker hairs together when pressed into the best quality felt ever made. Beaver hats would last to be handed down from father to son.

Fur felt hats are produced most commonly from rabbit fur with some of the better quality hats being made from beaver,

There are three main types of fur used in hat making. Beaver which is considered the finest fur, rabbit which fur-felt hats are chiefly made of and some wild hare fur. If you mix the rabbit fur with some wild hare fur it will produce hats in various medium price ranges. The quality of a fur felt hat is affected by the size and maturity of the animal when the skin is taken. Also, the environment in which the animal was raised plays a role in the quality. Last but not least, quality also depends on the way the fur is processed.

I could go on and on, but my fingers are tired.LOL regards, Fedora

 

[Andykev]

Hummmm

I guess the "quotes" are available on anyone's side of the fence. I just quoted from "Hat Talk". which is a detailed oral history and interviews with the ACTUAL people who MADE the hats during the golden years.........Stetson, Mallory, Dunlap, Knox.

My post was only to illustrate what a master hatter said, not some historian author from "Stetson Hats, 1865 - 1970".

Have you purchased this book yet? If not, I would be happy to buy one and send it to you as a gift. I found it to be very very insightful....it was almost like being there, and talking to the "old masters' themselves.

 

[Fedora]

Why of course Kevin. I would be honored to have the book as a gift. I just never got around to it. And thanks. Good stuff here. Oh, none of the quotes were from the Stetson book. All internet stuff. Regarding the Stetson book, I have found numerous errors. Like the author saying the x's also denoted price, i.e. the 3x equaling 30 bucks. I have seen hats on ebay, the 3x Stetsons that had the original price tag of 15 bucks in the hat. I think while there is good info in the book, there is also bad info as well. Oh well. Still, I love talking this stuff. regarsds, Fedora

 

[gcollins]

Great insights, fellas.

And it makes me think...many of the traditional beaver habitats have been destroyed due to land and population development.

This may be a dumb question, but where are the beavers coming from to make hats? I would guess Canada still has its fair share of beavers--fewer and fewer in Pacific Northwest. And it is legal to hunt beaver and sell it for fur--I don't think they're on the protected species lists? The 'aint the wild west anymore. I've never seen a beaver hunting license, or heard of when when I lived in either Oregon or Washington.

Could beavers be raised on farms domestically for their fur?

Thanks,
G

 

[Fedora]

I just remembered something and to be fair, I will note it here. Years ago, before I even had a home computer to access the Indy sites, I spent awhile looking by phone for an Indy fedora. I discovered several hatters by being referred by one hatter to another who might have the Indy fedora, or perhaps could make me one. I ended up calling Optimo hats, the same one that Graham now owns. But when I called and talked to the owner, it was the guy who had the shop prior to Graham. He told me he could make me an Indy fedora for 275.00. Trying to appear like I knew what I was talking about I asked him what they were made of. At this point in my life, I only knew of two materials, wool felt, and fur felt, but had no idea there were different types of fur felt. This guy at Optimo told me a couple of things. First, his hats were made of blends of mink, nutria, beaver and hare, no rabbit. After I hung up I wondered why he had said "no rabbit". I just assumed, falsly that rabbit was a bad material to use. Of course, that is not a fact as some very fine felt like the old Optimo felt and vintage hats were made of rabbit blends. But, he did not use rabbit. His beaver hats were more expensive, and I can't recall the price because to me at that time, 275 was way more than I would ever pay for a hat. I had bought a Beeline hat for 30 bucks or so locally that was called the Indy 500. So I figured I would pay a hundred bucks if it was an accurate hat, but certainly not 275.00. I also recall that he said his beaver hats had 5 per cent hare for binding. I had no clue what binding meant, but apparently it was in reference to what you talk about. regards, Fedora

 

[Fedora]

From what I understand beaver fur still comes from Canada and the US. Heck, we have so many here in the South that the wildlife boys brought in gators to help control them. It did not work, now we have gators and beavers galore. Fedora

 

[Nathan Flowers]

We have plenty of beaver in SC. We have to shoot them every summer in order to stop them from damming up our creek.

However, these Southern beaver are probably not good for fur, as it doesn't get cold enough here to force them to grow a thick coat. I know there are still plenty of beaver in the arctic and subarctic US and Canada, but as for where the felters get their beaver, I cannot say.

 

[SHARPETOYS]

Quote

The best and most durable hats are made with fur felt, which is composed primarily of rabbit or beaver fur. Some hare fur is used to make better hats but beaver and nutria are usually used in the best hats. (Nutria is a South American animal similar to a small beaver.)


Collecting the Fur
Hat bodies are made of animal fur. Raw fur is primarily accumulated from rabbit and beaver although it may also contain other furs like nutria, mink and chinchilla. Beaver fur is still the most popular fur for felt hats. Pure, undyed beaver fur, known as "clear hair", is some of the better fur on the market. Beaver fur is very dense, holds its shape, has more oil, felts together tighter, and repels water better than blends of rabbit fur felt. By "fur" we refer to the downy under-fur of these animals, not the long, coarse hair commonly known as "fur". Only this under-fur has barb-like projections on the surface of each fiber that will lock the fibers together to make a strong felt. The long hairs are pulled out or sheared off, and the remaining under-fur is chemically treated to raise up the microscopic barbs for better felting. The under-fur is then cut from the skin and separated into grades to be used for different qualities of hats. The length and quality of fur is measured in "rings" with the tip ends usually being discarded because of split ends and the ring closest the skin often being too oily to permit uniform coloration.

Mixing the Fur
A single hat body consists of approximately 7 to 8 ounces of fur. Different fur types are blended together to make for a stronger hat body. As many as eight different types or grades of fur may be used to create a single fur mixture. The fur is mixed in 180 pound batches, enough to make 360 hat bodies. The mixing of the furs is both science and art. The hatter "feels" the mixture, similar to a baker "feeling" the dough, and then tests the mixture by producing a single hat. If the resulting felting is acceptable, then the hatter commits the entire 180 pounds to production.

Quote I think the key is here!

If it needs some fine tuning, the hatter adds a little of "this" and and a little of "that" from his available types and grades of different furs.


This is why you can never receive an absolute answer to the question of "What exactly is this hat made from?" Hats are always a blend of types and grades of fur from individual animals.

 

[gcollins]

Good reply, Sharpeytoys. But what about the better Western hatters who work almost exclusively in beaver?

 

[Fedora]

If it needs some fine tuning, the hatter adds a little of "this" and and a little of "that" from his available types and grades of different furs.

I think this is referring to the blends. But as this says

Beaver fur is very dense, holds its shape, has more oil, felts together tighter, and repels water better than blends of rabbit fur felt

So I would take this to mean that to approach the quality of pure beaver felt requires proper mixing of the different furs to achieve something close to beaver felt. Fedora

 

[Andykev]

THIS IS GREATq

I love this , because we really will NEVER solve the blend vs. beaver discussions. I do love beaver, and agree that it make one fine, tough, beautiful hat. Very sought after. However, some dress hats benefit from a blend, but I'm no scientist and really don't give a hoot what the breakdown is...I just can pick up a hat, compare it to my vintage, and then make a choice or decision as to the quality. I do believe the more the merrier when it comes to beaver.

Fedora, you have my emai, and if you send me your mailing address, I will keep my word and order a HAT TALK book for you (Art do you want one too?) and send it.

I also would love it if you sent me the internet links to the sites you quoted on the fur.

I am very excited at this spirited chat.

 

[SHARPETOYS]

Andykev, here is the link i used on beaver felt.

http://www.rentonww.com/howhatsmade.html