Preview: Buzz Rickson's Space Program L-2B

[HPA Rep]

Charles, when you open a post about this jacket stating that "this is a copy of a jacket worn by a test pilot", I think quite a few of us will be this be interested in seeing the original jacket because it differentiates to the usual NASA L2's we've seen.

I certainly have no malice or bad intentions by asking that. After all, I'm here on a forum where discussing vintage and rare flight jackets is pretty much the point of posting...

Hmm.

ML,

Thanks for being patient for my reply. As already noted, last week was the closeout for FW 2018 BR ordering, which is a huge back-and-forth process. Factor in the normal customer service attendant each day, my useless right hand from carpal tunnel syndrome, and the final phases of prepping a film and getting ready to be on the film set, and I barely slept last week.

So, please enlighten me as to how BR is to know what differs from what you or others are familiar with when there is variety out there in this type of item? What differs for you may not differ for BR, and it may not strike them as a big deal. If you look at BR catalogs over the years, you will see that BR almost never shows comparisons to what they make (in 22 years, I can only recall comparisons made for the A-2 worn of Howie Kearns and “Pete’ Everest’s Test Sample L-2B, both of which I worked on directly), whether specialized or rank-and-file items, yet the BR copies of items that can be more readily accessed are of obvious great authenticity to anyone with one eye and half a brain's worth of research.

Please let me share an anecdote: Back when I first found BR about 1995, I saw their 1st-Model Tanker Jacket and mentioned to them that I had never seen one with the wind flap also having the blanket lining on the inside. I own two near-new examples I bought in 1974 and both have wind flaps made of only twill on both sides, yet BR insisted they had an example with the wool backing, but no photos document this in any BR marketing. 1st-Model Tanker Jackets are extremely rare and I have now seen about 15 in my life, likely 1/3 more than I had in 1995, and I also have the benefit of a pile of archival documents pertaining to the development, contracting, and issue of this item that I lacked in 1995.

What became clear to me some years later is that my jackets are from the original design, and the later 1st-Model examples incorporated the wool backing as part of an address to field complaints, only showing up in the production of the very last 1st-Model Tanker Jackets before the style was discontinued; the wool-backed wind flap ended up also being incorporated on the 2nd-Model Jackets we are so much more familiar with. I have now seen later-production 1st-Model Tanker Jackets with wool-backed wind flaps and now know that what BR makes is fully correct, yet if I had approached BR in 1995 not as one who was inquiring, but as one who was omniscient and accusing, I’d have been a fool and likely never done business with them.

Ok, so flash to 2012 and I offered BR my color image of Capt. Gleason wearing the L-2A with O. D. knit for their catalog and they declined it. This also happened with photos documenting their CCC coat in red plaid, their 1937 B-3 I sold them, M-41 Field Jacket I fully designed for them, and just about everything they make. I don't know why, but it seems they don't engage in this type of marketing we in the west may be more inclined to adopt. I work with what BR provides if I am not involved in the project directly, and I was not involved in this Space Program jacket in any way or the Red MA-1, whereas I was with the Kearns A-2 and the Everest L-2B Test Sample.

Anyone has a right to ask what they wish and to purchase what they choose; if you don't like what you see, then please don't buy it - simple! But the post Big J cited is phrased in an omniscient attack mode. It was not asking questions; rather, it made spurious allegations and accusations of duplicity and derogatory intentions predicated on what is to me a prejudice that runs throughout the thread (so far, you seem to be an exception).

I trust this covers it. Thank you.

 

[HPA Rep]

Charles, I felt compelled to post here as much of what you wrote above is dubious. Let’s start with some facts:

Firstly, that “Blazing Red” MA-1 which in your own marketing blurb from your own site states, “the result being a Blazing-Red MA-1 Jacket that made their elite test pilots stand out, as seen in our vintage photo of the crew of an F-89H “Scorpion.” So let’s have a look shall we…

Here’s your Blazing Red MA-1:

…and here’s the colour photo of the two Northrop test pilots standing in front of the Scorpion (also from your website):

Now here’s something, have a look at the left sleeve on the chap on the right, that’s funny, there doesn’t appear to be a sleeve “cigarette” pocket. Perhaps it’s just the image or a play of light. Or maybe not:

Here’s a better and closer photo of these two Northrop test pilots pre-flighting the Scorpion for the photographer. Once again no cigarette pocket and the finish on their jackets is not a shiny nylon as per the Blazing Red MA-1 but a flatter more matt material. It’s also debatable whether the jackets have oxygen tabs.

So is it fair to claim that your Blazing Red MA-1 is the same jacket as worn by the Northrop Scorpion pilots as you infer in your product spiel?


No and therein lies the problem.


I don’t have a problem with BR jackets at all, but I don’t like it when you or anyone else tries to stretch the truth or tell outright porkie pies saying a jacket is an exact replica or copy of a specific jacket when it’s very obviously not. Where I come from that’s called bullshit. I understand that you sell these jackets and that you have to market them and talk them up but there’s a difference between advertising pap and trying to pull the wool over people’s eyes.

That’s the reason why BR, and I suppose you as well since you are a rep for them, have copped some flak over at VLJ. It’s not because anyone has anything specifically against BR (well I don’t speaking for myself) but it’s this outright BS of saying that some BR jackets are exact replicas when they’re clearly not or it’s unproven.


Case in point again, this NASA Flite Line jacket which you tout as a “copy of one worn by a test pilot”, except it’s different from known NASA Flite Line jackets in terms of the epaulettes, lining, it has an oxygen tab, and the BR nylon looks to possibly be a different material from what Flite Line normally used. This is why posters have asked to see the actual jacket it was based on so that they can see this is based on an actual jacket because right now it’s different from known existent examples.

In terms of the L-2A (and the B-15C Mod whilst we’re about it) with olive knits, everybody knows they exist/existed as there are photos/examples of them. What is disputed is whether they left the manufacturer like that (which would contravene the specifications which were needed to be passed by an inspector for distribution for government use) or whether, the far more likely and logical reason, these were in theatre repairs.

What probably didn’t help matters was in an earlier thread here (and which got brought up a lot over at VLJ) was where it was thinly implied (well not that thin if we’re honest) that a member was perhaps racist for questioning the veracity of certain BR jackets.

A little honesty and some actual facts would probably go down a lot better rather than blindly railing against anyone who dares question the accuracy of certain of BR’s claims. I’d also question why you have such a problem and sensitivity with members on these various fora asking genuine questions about the historical veracity of some of BR’s offerings. If they’re possibly going to shell out quite large sums of money for one then surely they’re allowed to ask for some evidence to back up any claims made, be they marketing or otherwise.

Oh and saying that because BR have made it, it must be based on fact isn’t actually evidence of that.

Part 1:

Smithy,

Great photos, which I’ve never seen before! Ok, so if they are the very same flight crew from the color pic BR supplied wearing the very same jackets, I must agree that the BR Red MA-1 differs in some respects. Does that change anything? I’m fairly certain you’ll find a way to disagree, but the BR Red MA-1 was never said by me to be an exact copy of what appears in the color photo but was said to copy a red MA-1 procured for test pilots of Northrop. BR first made this style once before about 10 years ago and they didn’t know what it was they were copying beyond the fact it was vintage and sure looked like an issue MA-1, but in red. They got ahold of the color F-89 pic (I have no idea where from) and marketed accordingly.

Please note that I had no interest in the item in the first production and never asked what they had copied. In the course of providing BR catalogs to customers back when, one customer spoke with me about the color F-89 pic, telling me he had worked for Northrop years ago and how Northrop made red jackets and flying suits and other red items for test crews, and he said that’s what the F-89 crew was wearing. I asked him for more details and he put me in touch with a former co-worker. The co-worker said red was the adopted color of the company dating back to WWII, and he also specifically called the red jackets MA-1’s and noted, to the best of his recall, that the jackets came from a USAF supplier on custom order.

Were these really MA-1’s, L-2B’s, or some hybrid? Were they all the same or made in such small numbers as need dictated that fabrics and construction varied as it has on Test Samples and NASA garments and other limited-run items used in this sort of capacity? If one wants to debate semantics, any jacket not made under USAF contract and designated a Type MA-1 is not an MA-1 but an MA-1-style jacket, which would also apply to every copy from every maker of an A-2, G-1, B-3, L-2B, etc. The man called it an MA-1, that’s what I know.

I thought a lot about the BR Red MA-1 since that 2007 production and the more I looked at the catalog pics, the more they grew on me. When I saw it among their 2017 offerings, it was nothing to think about and I placed an order for HPA. 10 years ago, BR said they copied a plain MA-1 in red. I don’t know if they owned it, still own it, borrowed it, or had someone study and photograph it for them as I have often done for them with their items. Whatever they had access to is what they copied and that’s what was sold.

I continue to take Toyo for what they have always been to me, which is a forthright company that makes no bones about what is a device of their creative license and what is a direct copy of a vintage item. The Red MA-1 they described had no label stating it was an MA-1 or property of Northrop, nor would I expect such a genuine item to have labeling of this sort; putting a BR label in their copy makes perfect sense to me. Had I been writing a scholarly paper on the subject, there would have been much further deep research and footnotes, but that is well beyond the scope of selling these jackets.

 

[HPA Rep]

Charles, I felt compelled to post here as much of what you wrote above is dubious. Let’s start with some facts:

Firstly, that “Blazing Red” MA-1 which in your own marketing blurb from your own site states, “the result being a Blazing-Red MA-1 Jacket that made their elite test pilots stand out, as seen in our vintage photo of the crew of an F-89H “Scorpion.” So let’s have a look shall we…

Here’s your Blazing Red MA-1:

…and here’s the colour photo of the two Northrop test pilots standing in front of the Scorpion (also from your website):

Now here’s something, have a look at the left sleeve on the chap on the right, that’s funny, there doesn’t appear to be a sleeve “cigarette” pocket. Perhaps it’s just the image or a play of light. Or maybe not:

Here’s a better and closer photo of these two Northrop test pilots pre-flighting the Scorpion for the photographer. Once again no cigarette pocket and the finish on their jackets is not a shiny nylon as per the Blazing Red MA-1 but a flatter more matt material. It’s also debatable whether the jackets have oxygen tabs.

So is it fair to claim that your Blazing Red MA-1 is the same jacket as worn by the Northrop Scorpion pilots as you infer in your product spiel?


No and therein lies the problem.


I don’t have a problem with BR jackets at all, but I don’t like it when you or anyone else tries to stretch the truth or tell outright porkie pies saying a jacket is an exact replica or copy of a specific jacket when it’s very obviously not. Where I come from that’s called bullshit. I understand that you sell these jackets and that you have to market them and talk them up but there’s a difference between advertising pap and trying to pull the wool over people’s eyes.

That’s the reason why BR, and I suppose you as well since you are a rep for them, have copped some flak over at VLJ. It’s not because anyone has anything specifically against BR (well I don’t speaking for myself) but it’s this outright BS of saying that some BR jackets are exact replicas when they’re clearly not or it’s unproven.


Case in point again, this NASA Flite Line jacket which you tout as a “copy of one worn by a test pilot”, except it’s different from known NASA Flite Line jackets in terms of the epaulettes, lining, it has an oxygen tab, and the BR nylon looks to possibly be a different material from what Flite Line normally used. This is why posters have asked to see the actual jacket it was based on so that they can see this is based on an actual jacket because right now it’s different from known existent examples.

In terms of the L-2A (and the B-15C Mod whilst we’re about it) with olive knits, everybody knows they exist/existed as there are photos/examples of them. What is disputed is whether they left the manufacturer like that (which would contravene the specifications which were needed to be passed by an inspector for distribution for government use) or whether, the far more likely and logical reason, these were in theatre repairs.

What probably didn’t help matters was in an earlier thread here (and which got brought up a lot over at VLJ) was where it was thinly implied (well not that thin if we’re honest) that a member was perhaps racist for questioning the veracity of certain BR jackets.

A little honesty and some actual facts would probably go down a lot better rather than blindly railing against anyone who dares question the accuracy of certain of BR’s claims. I’d also question why you have such a problem and sensitivity with members on these various fora asking genuine questions about the historical veracity of some of BR’s offerings. If they’re possibly going to shell out quite large sums of money for one then surely they’re allowed to ask for some evidence to back up any claims made, be they marketing or otherwise.

Oh and saying that because BR have made it, it must be based on fact isn’t actually evidence of that.

Part 2:

The L-2A with O. D. knit is a totally different matter and subject to far less latitude, and you have fully demonstrated your lack of knowledge specifically and more broadly. Aside from the fact that I’ve handled not just an L-2A and B-15C with O. D. knit, but A-11C trousers, none of which bore any signs of replaced knit (and I’m fairly confident you will elect to disbelieve this), there would be no reason for the full knits to be replaced.

There are numerous observations of military goods produced and accepted that are inconsistent with approved specs.: O. D. knit on USAF blue nylon is one, but so is brown fur on blue nylon. "M-41 Field Jackets" made with lining fabric that is NOT shirting flannel (find me one that is so made) or with mismatched colors on fabric parts that were to be color matched, A-2 Jackets with the wind flaps or collar tops made from two pieces of leather and lining fabric that is neither silk nor matching the leather color, and Parachutist Helmet Liners made by Westinghouse that have female press studs of the wrong size, thus precluding securement to the steel helmets - these are but a few spec. deviations that most definitely derived at production.

The color pic of Capt. Gleason wearing the L-2A with O. D. knit was taken in late 1952, about 2 years after the jacket was likely made. Barring flying into a squadron of hungry moths more dense than the flak defenses of Ploesti in 1943, a jacket would not need ALL knit parts replaced just 2 years into its life. Knit parts do not wear at the same pace: as a seller of jackets for 30 years, I can say with complete conviction that the overwhelming majority of jackets will have cuffs wear first, then the waistband - collars are the LAST to go. Consumers want everything to match and be uniform, but that’s not how the military worked in WWII or the Korean War. If cuffs needed replacing vs. repair, they would indeed be replaced using what was available, but there would be no deference given to keeping the jacket uniform and replacing ALL knit just to provide an image of uniformity - this was utilitarian flying clothing, not dress uniforms.

I have never seen any combat jacket that had 100% of its knit parts replaced during its initial operational life vs. its postwar life – that’s thousands and thousands of jackets spanning the full gamut of styles, from A-2 and Tanker Jackets to nylon styles. These have been viewed while at shows dating back to the '70's, in collections great and small, in museum archives and repositories in and outside the USA, at surplus stores, and right from the dank basements and stuffy attics of those who wore them. This is observable fact if you’ve handled and studied enough military jackets and understand their nature and how the military operated in this regard. Suggesting otherwise is fully inconsistent with reality.

So, please don’t buy it if you don’t like, but please don’t speak omnisciently or as if you think you know something.

If anyone has a question related to the purchase of actual product(s), please contact me as usual, but I have said all I will on this topic - there is sufficient information provided. This is my thread on a BR Space Program L-2B and the pre-delivery ordering has ended. The Red MA-1, not even what this thread was about, is now all but sold out and available only in one size, and the BR L-2A with O. D. knit has not been offered since 2012. The Space Program L-2B premiers this fall.

 

[willyto]

Fantastic responses and lot of information as always Charles.

 

[Seb Lucas]

So is this a long way of saying Buzz Rickson also make tribute jackets that are based on historical garments but may not be accurate reproductions. I can live with that.