Pouncing

[bloc]

Hello everyone, hope you can help. I am having trouble with my pouncing. It is the first time I have tried so perhaps it's unsurprising. I make ladies hats in the UK and have never been taught to pounce. I don't know if that's a British thing or a ladies hat thing. I had never even heard of it until a few weeks ago when I stumbled into the Fedora Lounge.

I am working on a rabbit fur felt hat body made in Czechoslavakia. I spent a good amount of time ironing it on the block yesterday and then rubbing it with sandpaper. This morning it doesn't look beautiful. It looks uneven. There are places on the crown where the felt almost seems to have cracks in it. Having said that, I think the finish is looking better than before I started (in the good bits anyway).

I spent a long time last night reading over all the felt related threads on the forum and it seems this is a complex issue. And as a beginner in this I know I need to practise and learn by experience. But any tips would be most gratefully received.

Apart from my own lack of skill and knowledge, I wonder if the felt is the same that you chaps are pouncing away at over in the States? Perhaps felt for the UK market is more highly stiffened? Less so? I know you use beaver a lot, I wanted to wait before I started on the good stuff.

Perhaps I have over or under pounced?

Maybe my sandpaper is too rough, is this much fluff supposed to come off?

I don't have an online photo account but I'll set one up, I realise a picture might be helpful.

All comments and advice gratefully received

 

[Tedquinton]

I really know very little about how pouncing is done, but this info can be found on the adventurebilt delux website and describes the process as a series of stages using finer and finer sand paper:

"Now comes the most time consuming part of hatmaking and at the same time, the one that gains the most visible results: the pouncing (sanding). Each hat is pounced for hours and hours. Even though our rawbodies are pre-pounced from our felt manufactuer with a 320 grit sandpaper – which is where most hatters stop pouncing. It is a long way yet, before the felt has obtained the velvet-silky surface, which is characteristic of the Adventurebilt Deluxe.

On a machine made hat this is done automatically on a rotating device. In our case, this is of course done by hand. Starting with a 400 grit sandpaper to remove all of the uneveness, with a sturdy and continuous pouncing with the nap of the felt. What follows is the refinement of the surface. 600, 800, 1000 and 1200 grit hardly remove any material yet but it helps to sand the surface to a smooth and solid unit. Finally the felt is polished with a 2000 grit sandpaper. Afterwards the hat is freed from dust and felt particles, cleaned and sealed. As always we stay true to our motto, to make the most luxurious hat as possible. A hat, that underneath it‘s velvet-silky surface is ready for a lifetime of guarding your head from the elements. "

I hope I haven't infringed any rules by copying this info over but it is freely available to view at http://www.adventurebiltdeluxe.com/hats.php.

Ted

 

[bloc]

Thanks for that Ted. I'm happy to pounce away for hours at a time, I just worry that I might wear away the felt completely. Perhaps I just need to give it a try. More time, finer sandpaper maybe.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[bond]

Also your block needs to be smooth with out cracks otherwise crack lines will transfer to the felt.
Good luck sanding, when you get good at let me know and ill send you my hats to pounce!

 

[bloc]

Also your block needs to be smooth with out cracks otherwise crack lines will transfer to the felt.
Good luck sanding, when you get good at let me know and ill send you my hats to pounce!

Thanks for the advice, Bond. Pouncing for a living sounds a little bit dodgy...but you can send me your hats when I've mastered it!

Ted, just ordered a load of sandpaper in the grades you mentioned in your post so I'll crack on with it tomorrow.

Thanks all.

 

[TheDane]

There are no substantial differences between British hatting and American hatting - and no substantial difference between felt from Tonak from the Czech Republic (if the felt is from Czechoslavakia, it must be very old) or felt from Winchester, Tennessee. There are quite some differences between making gents' fedoras and ladies' hats, though.

Felt is not "just felt". You probably buy your felt at a millinery supply, and you should ask the supplier for informations on the properties of the felt - ie. degree of stiffening and degree of pre-pouncing. Hat bodies for millinery-use and for western hats are often stiffened a lot more than bodies for gents' fedoras. Bodies for fedoras are usually stiffened to about 0.5ºBe - sometimes the brim a little more. Ask your supplier. You can't buy felt without that information.

If the felt is factory pounced to grit 600, you should not start with grit 320. If your supplier is serious, he/she will know to what degree the bodies are pounced. As your supplier.

I don't precisely know what you're doing - but "rubbing it with sandpaper" doesn't sound right. The felt should be sanded - not "rubbed" - and it should be done, "argumented". You can not just rub the felt with sandpaper. You will have to understand what you're doing and why you're doing it. In some ways you can compare the pouncing with a haircut. You have to know exactly which hairs you want to cut and where.

What doesn't work for you is hard to know - and it's even harder to correct through a webforum. It is important to realize, that a piece of sandpaper is a tool - and it is important to use tools correct. As an example: You should pounce/sand only with the nap, and the amount of needed pouncing varies over the felt body. You probably don't have a master hatter around, so try to find a cabinetmaker, who can teach you to use a piece of sandpaper. It's hard to do over the web

It is also important to stop the pouncing, when it's finished - and you are finished, when you shouldn't pounce anymore. Ask a chef how long the stew must cook. "Until it's finished", is the answer. Hard to tell, easy to show [huh]

 

[TheDane]

bloc: How many fedoras do you own? I mean custom hats or vintage Stetsons, Borsalinos, Cavanaughs, etc.

 

[bloc]

There are no substantial differences between British hatting and American hatting - and no substantial difference between felt from Tonak from the Czech Republic (if the felt is from Czechoslavakia, it must be very old) or felt from Winchester, Tennessee. There are quite some differences between making gents' fedoras and ladies' hats, though.

Felt is not "just felt". You probably buy your felt at a millinery supply, and you should ask the supplier for informations on the properties of the felt - ie. degree of stiffening and degree of pre-pouncing. Hat bodies for millinery-use and for western hats are often stiffened a lot more than bodies for gents' fedoras. Bodies for fedoras are usually stiffened to about 0.5ºBe - sometimes the brim a little more. Ask your supplier. You can't buy felt without that information.

If the felt is factory pounced to grit 600, you should not start with grit 320. If your supplier is serious, he/she will know to what degree the bodies are pounced. As your supplier.

I don't precisely know what you're doing - but "rubbing it with sandpaper" doesn't sound right. The felt should be sanded - not "rubbed" - and it should be done, "argumented". You can not just rub the felt with sandpaper. You will have to understand what you're doing and why you're doing it. In some ways you can compare the pouncing with a haircut. You have to know exactly which hairs you want to cut and where.

What doesn't work for you is hard to know - and it's even harder to correct through a webforum. It is important to realize, that a piece of sandpaper is a tool - and it is important to use tools correct. As an example: You should pounce/sand only with the nap, and the amount of needed pouncing varies over the felt body. You probably don't have a master hatter around, so try to find a cabinetmaker, who can teach you to use a piece of sandpaper. It's hard to do over the web

It is also important to stop the pouncing, when it's finished - and you are finished, when you shouldn't pounce anymore. Ask a chef how long the stew must cook. "Until it's finished", is the answer. Hard to tell, easy to show [huh]

Thank you for all this very helpful information. It's good to know that the felt will be the same here and in the US so the processes should work the same way. I presume the felt I buy comes from Tonak via a British Millinery supplier. I didn't realise there was a difference between felt used for men's hats and felt used for women's but now that I have been on the Tonak website I can see there are a lot of choices to be made. I think I will buy direct from Tonak and then I should be able to get the information you say I need on factory pouncing and stiffening.

I appreciate it is difficult from a written description to know if I am doing it right or not. I think I know how to sand, this is not the first time I have used sandpaper just the first time I have used sandpaper on felt. I have been sanding with the nap and trying to keep it even.

No, I don't know of any master hatters around here. I know plenty of milliners but no-one is au fait with the processes we are discussing. I know that spending a day watching someone doing it properly would be the perfect way of learning, just not sure how I can manage that at the moment.

And so, I guess perseverance and practise (and a lot of questions) is the way to go for now.

Thanks again for the information, it's been very useful.

 

[bloc]

bloc: How many fedoras do you own? I mean custom hats or vintage Stetsons, Borsalinos, Cavanaughs, etc.

Not any real quality ones but I have some coming. I learnt a lot of my millinery skills through taking apart old hats and reinventing them, I am sure that would be useful here too.

 

[TheDane]

Before you can even think of making a fedora, you must first learn what a fedora is and be able to distinguish between a good and a bad one.

It would be impossible for you to write a raga, if you've never heard Indian music. I have never tasted a Yorkshire pudding, and I bet you, I could fill you with weird thoughts if I tried to make you a dish. My pudding would no doubt be "build from wonderings"

Taking hats apart is a very good way to learn a lot of the tricks of the trade. A couple of years with fedoras as part of your daily life is another very good way to learn about the phenomenon - and to qualify thoughts and views on it. To people that don't wear fedoras, it easily becomes an academic exercise to make fedoras. If you are not a fedora-wearer, you will not have a natural understanding of, what properties that appeal to fedora-wearers.

I don't say, it's impossible for a non-fedora-wearer to make fedoras. On the other hand: Would I feel comfortable, leaving it to vegans to cook my steaks? Well, that would take some special vegan!

 

[bloc]

Before you can even think of making a fedora, you must first learn what a fedora is and be able to distinguish between a good and a bad one.

It would be impossible for you to write a raga, if you've never heard Indian music. I have never tasted a Yorkshire pudding, and I bet you, I could fill you with weird thoughts if I tried to make you a dish. My pudding would no doubt be "build from wonderings"

Taking hats apart is a very good way to learn a lot of the tricks of the trade. A couple of years with fedoras as part of your daily life is another very good way to learn about the phenomenon - and to qualify thoughts and views on it. To people that don't wear fedoras, it easily becomes an academic exercise to make fedoras. If you are not a fedora-wearer, you will not have a natural understanding of, what properties that appeal to fedora-wearers.

I don't say, it's impossible for a non-fedora-wearer to make fedoras. On the other hand: Would I feel comfortable, leaving it to vegans to cook my steaks? Well, that would take some special vegan!

I completely agree, I need much more experience and exposure to the quality headwear I strive to create. Exposure to fantastic fedoras is essential. Wearing them I think is not. Some of the world's best milliners are men, it must go both ways.

Having said that, when I've made fedoras for my three sons and my husband, I'm planning to make one for myself. Why not?

And my Yorkshire puddings are pretty damn good...

 

[alanfgag]

I completely agree, I need much more experience and exposure to the quality headwear I strive to create. Exposure to fantastic fedoras is essential. Wearing them I think is not. Some of the world's best milliners are men, it must go both ways.

Having said that, when I've made fedoras for my three sons and my husband, I'm planning to make one for myself. Why not?

And my Yorkshire puddings are pretty damn good...

... certainly many of Hollywood's great costume designers were women. I look forward to seeing more of your projects and puddings, Bloc.

 

[bloc]

... certainly many of Hollywood's great costume designers were women. I look forward to seeing more of your projects and puddings, Bloc.

Thanks Alan, all encouragement gratefully received.

 

[Mulceber]

If you're looking to learn about felting and hat-making, you might try talking to Marc Kitter of Adventurebilt deluxe. It would be a bit of a hike (he is in Germany after all), but if you're willing to make a weekend trip to Deutschland, he might be willing to let you watch him pounce/make hats or give you a bit of a tutorial.

-M

 

[TheDane]

I'm not trying to discourage you. I'm just trying to point out, that it's a craft, that takes a lot to learn - especially if one is autodidact. I absolutely second Alan's comment, but those women were raised with fedoras all around them. That's a very important advantage.

On the other hand I would like to "peddle away from knowitalliness" on the statement on wearing fedoras - at least a bit. Of course it's not absolutely necessary to wear fedoras to make them - but it sure is a great advantage to do so. I don't personally know any male milliners, but from my former career as a theatre technician I still have several male theatre taylors and costume designers among my friends. Some of them have very personal experiences with wearing women's clothes and dresses. Knowledge can be obtained in many ways

Of course you should carry on with the hobby. My comments were simply based on the fact, that you were "rubbing" your hat with sandpaper without knowing what the result should look like - or why. I don't think that is the best approach. To check out the end product you aim for, is always a good way to get around a task. That was my point - and it seems like we agree on that

 

[bloc]

If you're looking to learn about felting and hat-making, you might try talking to Marc Kitter of Adventurebilt deluxe. It would be a bit of a hike (he is in Germany after all), but if you're willing to make a weekend trip to Deutschland, he might be willing to let you watch him pounce/make hats or give you a bit of a tutorial.

-M

Thank you for that. Germany is no problem, I have family there. I would rather like to come over to the States but for now it's out of budget. I will investigate further. Cheers

 

[TheDane]

To go visit Mark Kitter is a great idea, if he agrees. There are only a very few Danish hatters left, and he is actually the only, who has a (web)store. Learning from a competent craftsman is always the best

 

[suitedcboy]

Is the designation fort sandpaper different in Europe?
A hat already pounced with 600 grit US nomenclature paper would be sanded at next step with 720 or 1000. 320 in the US nom. is a fairly coarse paper with 600 being into the fine range.

 

[bloc]

TheDane
I hope you didn't take my thanks to Alan for his encouragement as a slight to you, it wasn't meant as such. I like people who say it like it is. You have given me plenty of very practical advice and I am grateful. I am single-minded and rather obsessive, it takes a lot to put me off.

I found this forum after having been asked to make men's hats. I finished one recently and I wasn't happy with it although the recipient was delighted. I knew it wasn't right so I needed to find out why. And so, here
I am. If I do something I want to do it properly. The level of commitment and obsession evident here is fascinating to me. I am a geek.

I have done a lot of reading but at some point you have to start doing and learning from experience. I am an absolute beginner and I am prepared to do ridiculous things and ask stupid questions in order to learn. At my age, I am past embarrassment

I am grateful to you for taking the time to respond to my questions. I'm hoping to squeeze more out of you.

 

[bloc]

Is the designation fort sandpaper different in Europe?
A hat already pounced with 600 grit US nomenclature paper would be sanded at next step with 720 or 1000. 320 in the US nom. is a fairly coarse paper with 600 being into the fine range.

I don't know. I've just ordered sandpaper in grades as listed in Ted's post at the beginning of the thread. I have a lot to learn. If I find out, I'll let you know...