Post Brexit import experiences

[Blackadder]

OK. We'll see what Aero decides, less margin, or VAT added on the invoice. But hopefully never again VAT 00,00, the worst option.

I still think you are missing the point. Even if VAT is added back to the invoice, that simply means Aero is paying VAT to the UK Gov't and treating that as local sale. Aero is not going to pay the French VAT for you because that is as some suggested collected by the courier while clearing French custom. The courier or you is responsible for clearing the French custom, Aero is not and will not do that for you. The EU agreement is that you only pay sales tax once to say the exporting country and the importing country cannot charge VAT again. But since UK is no longer EU., the previous agreement is no longer binding between UK and France or other EU members. So again, even if Aero does pay the VAT (to the UK Gov't) and marked the amount on its invoice, it is not gonna bar the French Gov't from charging French VAT again.
The only way is like what Lewis Leather and Iron Heart UK are doing, 20% off the listed price for non-UK customers.

 

[Blackadder]

I've purchased a lot of sub £100 items from Japan over the years, and like you mention, I've ended up paying both Japanese and British sales tax/VAT. Shops can't be bothered with the paperwork.

Yes. That is why I always look for a dealer who offer tax free shopping. Like for example, if I wanna buy a pair of Warehouse Co jeans, I would rather go to one of its Japanese dealers on Rakuten than to Warehouse's own online shop.

 

[Rich22]

Yes. That is why I always look for a dealer who offer tax free shopping. Like for example, if I wanna buy a pair of Warehouse Co jeans, I would rather go to one of its Japanese dealers on Rakuten than to Warehouse's own online shop.

The Japanese do seem to be good in that, on the whole, they automatically declare everything to be valued at under £30 and a gift. Small sellers anyway. So it could be worse. I do as you suggested for pricier items.

 

[Tom71]

I still think you are under a fallacy. We do not pay VAT twice.
Suppose you buy a jacket for 700 gbp on Aero's website.
This is the same price that everyone else pays to Aero.
If the purchase is within the UK, then the purchase price includes 20% VAT. Aero has to pay this 20% to UK tax. The end customer still pays 700 GBP.
If the purchase goes to the EU, then Aero also charges 700 GBP. This price is in this case without the VAT and Aero does not have to pay it to the UK tax because it is an export.
I.e. Aero has in this case 20% more turnover.
In the EU, depending on whether the item falls under the customs agreement, customs duty is due. For leather goods this is 4%. But these are only due under certain conditions. Often it is 0%. To these are also applied to the shipping costs.
Then in any case, depending on the EU country, VAT is due (France 20%). This comes on the price + shipping + customs. The handling costs of the forwarding agency for this whole handling come then as far as I know still in Top.
Export from the UK to the USA is similar, but there is often the tax-free limit higher and thus it is cheaper.
Legally there is nothing to complain about. I don't think it's morally correct to charge a 20% surcharge for non-UK countries.
But we definitely don't pay VAT twice in the EU, but +20% surcharge and then VAT once. Comes out to the same but has a different consequence.
Lewis Leathers, for example, deducts the 20% VAT when the goods go to the EU.
Ironheart already gives the final price including EU tax and duty.
So there is another way.

Honestly, it's this approach by Aero that is currently preventing me from buying another Aero. It's a bit of a matter of principle for me.

After 17 pages I am quite exhausted. If there are still open issues, @MrProper´s excellent post should answer them (if I remember correctly not for the first time).

Aero charges extra for overseas costumers. They are not the only ones, and it sure is not illegal. It can and will however be a reason for some of us to not buy from them for the time being.

Aero "should" deduct [x]% for sales which don´t carry UK tax. Yes, and Porsche should offer the 911 for half the price to me because I am [x]% poorer than the average buyer in the UAE.

I did buy a Jeep Wrangler a few weeks ago. Kind of a childhood dream coming true. What if I told you that the retail price in Europe is more or less exactly twice the US-price?! Nothing to do with taxes too. Is that "unfair" or "unethical" too...?

 

[Rich22]

Your example does have *something* to do with taxes, and yes, price gouging specific territories is a crappy practice, especially when both territories have similar average disposable incomes. Hence my issue with IH UK doubling/trebling+ Japanese prices. And hence why they have to go to great lengths to prevent individuals importing jeans privately from Japan.

Regarding the cars, most people just compare their available options, and the public as a whole end up buying cars that Ford or whoever produce locally and sell for fair prices.

 

[Wildhorses]

I still think you are missing the point. Even if VAT is added back to the invoice, that simply means Aero is paying VAT to the UK Gov't and treating that as local sale. Aero is not going to pay the French VAT for you because that is as some suggested collected by the courier while clearing French custom. The courier or you is responsible for clearing the French custom, Aero is not and will not do that for you. The EU agreement is that you only pay sales tax once to say the exporting country and the importing country cannot charge VAT again. But since UK is no longer EU., the previous agreement is no longer binding between UK and France or other EU members. So again, even if Aero does pay the VAT (to the UK Gov't) and marked the amount on its invoice, it is not gonna bar the French Gov't from charging French VAT again.
The only way is like what Lewis Leather and Iron Heart UK are doing, 20% off the listed price for non-UK customers.

I won't find my answer soon.
VAT is removed when a EU product is shipped to a non EU country . Aero should remove their own VAT when they ship to EU countries. Or the system does not work the same as ours...

 

[MrProper]

I won't find my answer soon.
VAT is removed when a EU product is shipped to a non EU country . Aero should remove their own VAT when they ship to EU countries. Or the system does not work the same as ours...

Again... an exporter MAY reduce VAT because no VAT is due in his own country due to the export, but he does not HAVE to do so. No one will force him to do so in his own country.

 

[Mich486]

Like most people these days I shop online a lot. All over the world. In 99% of cases shops remove local taxes when shipping abroad. This is very easy to embed in any payment system on any website since I guess html 1.0.

Many shops have a no return policy for foreign sales and the shipping costs are higher. That should cover the extra hassle. Not sure why foreign customers should be charged more. Certainly not illegal but pretty annoying nonetheless.

As far as Aero I think it’s crystal clear now that outside of the UK you should expect UK price including UK taxes + whatever local taxes are applied to imports.

 

[Wildhorses]

Again... an exporter MAY reduce VAT because no VAT is due in his own country due to the export, but he does not HAVE to do so. No one will force him to do so in his own country.

Exactly, that's what they have to do, Holly just confirmed that their new site will exist soon, with a reduced price for EU.
For the refund of the tax I had to pay, she asks me to contact the customs and ask them why this tax has been so high... It's not my fault, it's the regulations in France...

 

[Edward]

The Japanese do seem to be good in that, on the whole, they automatically declare everything to be valued at under £30 and a gift. Small sellers anyway. So it could be worse. I do as you suggested for pricier items.

It is worth remembering that:

1] should a package go missing in shipping, insurance will only refund the declared value

2] it is the importer who is liable for tax in the UK, so if HMRC were to decide that an under-declared value was a deliberate attempt to evade taxation due, there could be a penalty for that.

Of course, in practice it seems that a lot of stuff (as long as it's not coming from the US, they tightened up a lot on that stuff about fifteen years ago when the dollar was very weak on the pound) does still slip the net.

 

[Rich22]

I'm pretty sure they don't tend to mail anything low value with insurance anyway.

 

[Blackadder]

After 17 pages I am quite exhausted. If there are still open issues, @MrProper´s excellent post should answer them (if I remember correctly not for the first time).

Aero charges extra for overseas costumers. They are not the only ones, and it sure is not illegal. It can and will however be a reason for some of us to not buy from them for the time being.

Aero "should" deduct [x]% for sales which don´t carry UK tax. Yes, and Porsche should offer the 911 for half the price to me because I am [x]% poorer than the average buyer in the UAE.

I did buy a Jeep Wrangler a few weeks ago. Kind of a childhood dream coming true. What if I told you that the retail price in Europe is more or less exactly twice the US-price?! Nothing to do with taxes too. Is that "unfair" or "unethical" too...?

Imported car is not a good comparison. Imported cars are usually very expensive because of import duties and other trade barriers raised by your own country and not so much about price discrimination. Countries often impose heavy duties on imported cars to 1) protect locally produced cars which is why Japanese manufacturers had to open up factories overseas; 2) certain countries like Singapore wants people to take public transport to avoid congestion, so they charge up to 200% tax on private vehicles and force people to de-register cars that are over 10 years old to deal with both new and second hands.

 

[Tom71]

Imported car is not a good comparison. Imported cars are usually very expensive because of import duties and other trade barriers raised by your own country and not so much about price discrimination. Countries often impose heavy duties on imported cars to 1) protect locally produced cars which is why Japanese manufacturers had to open up factories overseas; 2) certain countries like Singapore wants people to take public transport to avoid congestion, so they charge up to 200% tax on private vehicles and force people to de-register cars that are over 10 years old to deal with both new and second hands.

You are right, of course. I was just wondering about the apparent emotions surrounding Aero‘s pricing.
Like with my new car, customers are perfectly free to turn to other makers. Or decide that THIS product for THAT price is still worth it.

Anyway, just an observation based on personal opinion. Others are free to disagree, of course.
No disagreement is warranted on the facts of the taxation system, however. Hence my reference to @MrPorper‘s post.

 

[Harris HTM]

I was just wondering about the apparent emotions surrounding Aero‘s pricing.

I guess it has to do with the fact that 99% of the British webshops either remove the 20% British VAT or cover the EU VAT (I can give you a list with at least 20 webshops that do that), while Aero (and as far as I have read here also the other 2 Scottish leather jacket manufacturers, @their customers: please correct me if I'm wrong, this is only based on what I've read on this thread) do not, resulting in a much more expensive product.
But as you say: customers are free to turn to other makers.

 

[Tom71]

I guess it has to do with the fact that 99% of the British webshops either remove the 20% British VAT or cover the EU VAT (I can give you a list with at least 20 webshops that do that), while Aero (and as far as I have read here also the other 2 Scottish leather jacket manufacturers, @their customers: please correct me if I'm wrong, this is only based on what I've read on this thread) do not, resulting in a much more expensive product.
But as you say: customers are free to turn to other makers.

… and yet they didn’t raise their prices by 20-30% as other makers (FL, Eastman). I don’t think any small maker is getting rich on selling customised leather jackets. Live and let live…

 

[Harris HTM]

… and yet they didn’t raise their prices by 20-30% as other makers (FL, Eastman). I don’t think any small maker is getting rich on selling customised leather jackets. Live and let live…

Absolutely true.

 

[Carlos840]

… and yet they didn’t raise their prices by 20-30% as other makers (FL, Eastman). I don’t think any small maker is getting rich on selling customised leather jackets. Live and let live…

To me it's about how you do it, not why.

Eastman raised their prices in a clear way, they just raised thier prices. I don't have a problem with that.
Lewis Leathers did the same thing, i bought my custom 551 Dominator for 475GBP in 2013, they are now worth 895GBP, i don't have aproblem with that, they clearly raised their price on the website. I don't have a problem with that either.

Bill Kelso raised their prices a few years ago, how? They pretended they had been bought out by a UK buyer and changed the currency on their website without changing the actual prices, ie the same jacket went from costing 500 Euros to costing 500GBP overnight. At that time the pound was strong and that ended up being a 20% increase in price. Who was that mysterious UK buyer, did he ever exist? I doubt it...
That was sneaky.

IMO Aero put themselves on the sneaky side by doing what they do, it's not even about the legality of it for me, it's about how you look doing it.

 

[Rich22]

Big price increases can be equally as off putting as small but seemingly sneaky price increases....

For example, I inherited some antique solid silver stationary, and when I found out the original firm still traded I considered buying another piece. This was about 2016. I decided not to buy frivolous luxuries at that time, and would when I had some cash to blow. I looked back last year when I decided to buy, to find out they'd increased their prices by more than 200%. Sure, silver has gone up in price, but we're talking perhaps a <£10 increase in raw materials, not an £800 increase.... Whether I can afford/justify the new price or not, it no longer seems worth it, knowing what the "real" value is. A little digging showed a new company took control of the business, and simply wants to position it differently in the market (and make a larger profit margin). They also removed some of the more complex traditional designs, that were in production for more than a century, to lower production costs.

A near identical example would be Church shoes, since Prada took them over and trebled prices. I'd like to buy another pair like my old pair, but they only want the "show off" buyer now, rather than a buyer willing to pay a justifiable price for very high quality.

Eastman's new prices, considering their lack of customisation, also no longer appear. Increases, for me, are only tolerable when their are proportionate and justifiable. Thedi, for example, can charge more than Aero because he offers a superior product, but in the absence of customisation of measurements I'd argue that Eastman offer a product that isn't as well tailored to the unique measurements of individuals, and as such is inferior.

 

[Marc mndt]

Thedi, for example, can charge more than Aero because he offers a superior product, but in the absence of customisation of measurements I'd argue that Eastman offer a product that isn't as well tailored to the unique measurements of individuals, and as such is inferior.

I think it's a bridge too far to say Eastman's offering is inferior to Thedi's just because they only offer OTR.

Following your logic, one could argue Aero makes better jackets than Freewheelers

 

[Blackadder]

You are right, of course. I was just wondering about the apparent emotions surrounding Aero‘s pricing.
Like with my new car, customers are perfectly free to turn to other makers. Or decide that THIS product for THAT price is still worth it.

Anyway, just an observation based on personal opinion. Others are free to disagree, of course.
No disagreement is warranted on the facts of the taxation system, however. Hence my reference to @MrPorper‘s post.

Well, people do often complain about heavy import tax on imported cars. The fact that they are still buying does not stop them from complaining or finding way to cheat, does it.