That's an excellent example of a highly legible dial with boxcar-sized hour numerals, coupled with the "Canadian" dial feature of associated military time markings. Would you happen to know whether your Swiss Ball was approved for railroad service in Canada?My pride and joy - a 1950s Swiss-made Ball RR watch:
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Pocketwatches
- Thread starter Nathan Flowers
- Start date
Shangas
I'll Lock Up
- Messages
- 6,116
- Location
- Melbourne, Australia
I have researched the history of the watch-model quite extensively, and I believe that it was used on the Canadian Pacific Railroad. The exact model-number (Ball Record 435c) is listed in a booklet of CPR approved watches for the 1950s.
The fact that it has, as you rightly pointed out, a Canadian dial, would only seem to enforce this, along with everything else (Big clear numbers, big blue hands, etc etc).
The fact that it has, as you rightly pointed out, a Canadian dial, would only seem to enforce this, along with everything else (Big clear numbers, big blue hands, etc etc).
Very interesting. I wonder whether you picked up your lovely Swiss Ball pocket watch from a Canadian seller ~ are you familiar with the watch's provenance?
Just curious too, about the situation in Oz back in the day, as to whether the Australian railway companies subscribed to a system of Railroad Approved watches similar to the situation in the North American jurisdictions.
Shangas
I'll Lock Up
- Messages
- 6,116
- Location
- Melbourne, Australia
Hi VC,
I picked up this watch from a jewelery dealer here in Melbourne. She didn't know anything about its history or its significance - which is one reason I was able to buy it for under $200.
Everything I know about the watch, I researched online, or deduced from looking at it. Everything about the watch told me that it had a very hard working life, which made me think that it had been used actively on the CPR. You probably can't see it in the photo, but the plating around the crown was completely worn away - which tells me it was wound up every day for years and years on end. The bow it had when I bought the watch was not the original, neither was the minute hand (I had both replaced in its last servicing because they were driving me nuts!), and the dial has 2-3 hairline cracks on it.
Australia DID have a system of RR watches (I have seen a couple of Australian RR watches in my day), but it wasn't anything as rigorous as what was practiced in the 'States, or Canada.
I picked up this watch from a jewelery dealer here in Melbourne. She didn't know anything about its history or its significance - which is one reason I was able to buy it for under $200.
Everything I know about the watch, I researched online, or deduced from looking at it. Everything about the watch told me that it had a very hard working life, which made me think that it had been used actively on the CPR. You probably can't see it in the photo, but the plating around the crown was completely worn away - which tells me it was wound up every day for years and years on end. The bow it had when I bought the watch was not the original, neither was the minute hand (I had both replaced in its last servicing because they were driving me nuts!), and the dial has 2-3 hairline cracks on it.
Australia DID have a system of RR watches (I have seen a couple of Australian RR watches in my day), but it wasn't anything as rigorous as what was practiced in the 'States, or Canada.
Glacierman
New in Town
- Messages
- 16
- Location
- NW Montana
Regarding that two-faced Illinois above, I misspoke. It is, in fact, a lever-set movement as it is supposed to be. And it looks a whole lot nicer with glass crystals than with those icky plastic ones.
CANADIAN ILLINOIS BUNN SPECIAL
It's been raining all day. Fortunately an Illinois Bunn Special which I recently purchased off of eBay, arrived in today's mail, giving me something to play with:
Made in 1921 or 1922, it's a Model 9 Variant "B" with a Rayed Pattern on the nickel movement. Of 16 size with 21 jewels, this lever set timepiece was universally Railroad Approved, the movement being adjusted to temperature and 6 positions. So far it's been keeping great time, I'll wear it for the next month or so.
In my research, I was able to identify its dial as the so-called "Reverse 2", named for the shape of the "7" which resembles an upside-down backward "2". But this was troubling because the Reverse 2 dial had been discontinued 3-5 years prior to this watch's manufacture. It then occurred to me that the dial in question was the Canadian version, with the 12-24 hour markers inboard of the corresponding 1-12 hour markers. Unlike most American railways, the Canadian Pacific Railway used the 24-hour clock & they also tended to set the de facto standards for the other railway companies in Canada.
I thus reasoned that the Illinois Watch Co. had used up their stock of American Reverse 2 dials but not their stock of Canadian ones, thus the dial was correct for a movement exported to Canada. Furthermore, the watch is cased in a case made by the American Watch Case Co. of Toronto, further bolstering my thinking that the movement with Canadian dial had been finished for export to Canada. Quite commonly the large US watch producers sent uncased watches to Canada where they were cased in Canadian-made cases in order to avoid customs tariffs.
So I'm pretty sure that my Illinois Bunn Special movement was expressly finished for export to Canada where I procured it from a fellow Canadian eBayer almost a century later. More pictures are available including shots of the movement, on the eBay listing which remains available for viewing:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ILLINOISS-B...fUQ1X%2BaBmHaQtH8WiKw%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
This watch may not be one of the 23-jewel models with the 60-hour motor barrel, but what the heck I've taken to it already & consider it to be a "keeper" notwithstanding a few hairlines on its uncommon dial.
It's been raining all day. Fortunately an Illinois Bunn Special which I recently purchased off of eBay, arrived in today's mail, giving me something to play with:
Made in 1921 or 1922, it's a Model 9 Variant "B" with a Rayed Pattern on the nickel movement. Of 16 size with 21 jewels, this lever set timepiece was universally Railroad Approved, the movement being adjusted to temperature and 6 positions. So far it's been keeping great time, I'll wear it for the next month or so.
In my research, I was able to identify its dial as the so-called "Reverse 2", named for the shape of the "7" which resembles an upside-down backward "2". But this was troubling because the Reverse 2 dial had been discontinued 3-5 years prior to this watch's manufacture. It then occurred to me that the dial in question was the Canadian version, with the 12-24 hour markers inboard of the corresponding 1-12 hour markers. Unlike most American railways, the Canadian Pacific Railway used the 24-hour clock & they also tended to set the de facto standards for the other railway companies in Canada.
I thus reasoned that the Illinois Watch Co. had used up their stock of American Reverse 2 dials but not their stock of Canadian ones, thus the dial was correct for a movement exported to Canada. Furthermore, the watch is cased in a case made by the American Watch Case Co. of Toronto, further bolstering my thinking that the movement with Canadian dial had been finished for export to Canada. Quite commonly the large US watch producers sent uncased watches to Canada where they were cased in Canadian-made cases in order to avoid customs tariffs.
So I'm pretty sure that my Illinois Bunn Special movement was expressly finished for export to Canada where I procured it from a fellow Canadian eBayer almost a century later. More pictures are available including shots of the movement, on the eBay listing which remains available for viewing:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ILLINOISS-B...fUQ1X%2BaBmHaQtH8WiKw%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
This watch may not be one of the 23-jewel models with the 60-hour motor barrel, but what the heck I've taken to it already & consider it to be a "keeper" notwithstanding a few hairlines on its uncommon dial.
- Messages
- 17,215
- Location
- New York City
⇧ beautiful watch and nice bit of sleuthing logic.
Thx Fading Fast. I especially enjoy sleuthing about whenever I pick up a watch that's been engraved with someone's name with an associated date.
M Hatman
I'll Lock Up
- Messages
- 4,545
Here are a couple of pictures of some of mine, hanging from their chains on a Victorian jewelers watch tree.......
M
M
sebastian czentner
One of the Regulars
- Messages
- 193
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina.
Isnt vintage exactly but i just bought a pocket watch, me and the wristwatches are incompatibles, always those broken in my wrist.
fabiovenhorst
Call Me a Cab
- Messages
- 2,134
- Location
- Gaspar - SC - Brazil
My little Eska
Hi Fabio, that's a very nice pocket watch, I especially like the railway track chapter with the interspersed 24-hour markers.
Is that pen the 1949 version of the "fat" Sheaffer Touchdown?
fabiovenhorst
Call Me a Cab
- Messages
- 2,134
- Location
- Gaspar - SC - Brazil
AMERICAN ROCKFORD IN 18-Size
Rockford is one of the lesser known American pocket watch brands from days gone by. I recently picked up an 11-jewel specimen encased in a silver "swing-out" case with one of those nice thick crystals:
The crystal & the dial are in minty condition. Pendant wound & lever set, the watch is a Model 7 in Grade 67 manufactured circa 1887 with a full plate nickel movement.
Although it was keeping time, my practice is to not carry a newly acquired pocket watch of unknown provenance until it's been serviced by my watchmaker. He determined that some previous "botchmaker" had jerry-rigged a replacement balance staff utilizing some less-than-workmanlike techniques, so he hunted down the correct part & replaced the staff in tandem with overhauling my Rockford. My watchmaker was impressed with the quality of the movement & considers it to be high grade. In my experience 23 jewels are fine & dandy but 11 or even 7 jewels in a high quality movement are nothing to scoff at.
Rockford is one of the lesser known American pocket watch brands from days gone by. I recently picked up an 11-jewel specimen encased in a silver "swing-out" case with one of those nice thick crystals:
The crystal & the dial are in minty condition. Pendant wound & lever set, the watch is a Model 7 in Grade 67 manufactured circa 1887 with a full plate nickel movement.
Although it was keeping time, my practice is to not carry a newly acquired pocket watch of unknown provenance until it's been serviced by my watchmaker. He determined that some previous "botchmaker" had jerry-rigged a replacement balance staff utilizing some less-than-workmanlike techniques, so he hunted down the correct part & replaced the staff in tandem with overhauling my Rockford. My watchmaker was impressed with the quality of the movement & considers it to be high grade. In my experience 23 jewels are fine & dandy but 11 or even 7 jewels in a high quality movement are nothing to scoff at.
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BIG AL, SMALL WATCH
Another lucky Lounge member must have been the winner at $84,375 of this solid platinum cased & diamond studded pocket watch, the final auction price having been somewhat over my monthly spending limit:
The watch is more fully described at the following link, which includes details of its provenance tying it to Al Capone:
https://www.rrauction.com/bidtracker_detail.cfm?IN=2105
From the Pocket Watch Database site we get the following horological information:
Grade: 905
Manufacturer: Illinois
Manufacturer Location: Springfield, Illinois
Movement Serial Number: 5281719
Grade: 905
Model: 2
Estimated Production Year: 1929
Run Quantity: 2,000
Total Production: 45,400
Size: 6/0s
Jewels: 17j
Movement Configuration: Openface
Movement Finish: Nickel
Movement Setting: Pendant
Plate: Bridge Plate
Bridge Type: Center
Railroad Grade: No
Dial Feet Locations: 2.5, 21.0, 43.5
Case Screw Locations: 4.0, 35.0
Technically this is a Hamilton watch in so far as Hamilton had taken over Illinois effective January 1, 1928. However circa 1929 this watch would have been largely produced using Illinois tooling, parts & labor. Production wasn't removed from the Springfield, Illinois plant & transferred to the Hamilton factory, until 1932 by which time the ravages of the Great Depression had forced consolidation of operations.
Anyways this watch gives us some idea of what a well-heeled gangster would have hung from his vest at the tail-end of the Prohibition Era. What surprised me more than even its gaudiness (using diamonds to set out his initials on the caseback) was the fairly small 6/0 size of Big Al's pocket watch. I'm aware that pocket watch sizes had gradually been shrinking, but I would have expected such a sophisticated thug as Al Capone to have sported a 12 size "gentleman's" timepiece. Of course, by the late 1920s wristwatches were outselling pocket watches by a considerable margin so the smaller sizes were likely considered more stylish by sophisticates such as Scarface.
Another lucky Lounge member must have been the winner at $84,375 of this solid platinum cased & diamond studded pocket watch, the final auction price having been somewhat over my monthly spending limit:
The watch is more fully described at the following link, which includes details of its provenance tying it to Al Capone:
https://www.rrauction.com/bidtracker_detail.cfm?IN=2105
From the Pocket Watch Database site we get the following horological information:
Grade: 905
Manufacturer: Illinois
Manufacturer Location: Springfield, Illinois
Movement Serial Number: 5281719
Grade: 905
Model: 2
Estimated Production Year: 1929
Run Quantity: 2,000
Total Production: 45,400
Size: 6/0s
Jewels: 17j
Movement Configuration: Openface
Movement Finish: Nickel
Movement Setting: Pendant
Plate: Bridge Plate
Bridge Type: Center
Railroad Grade: No
Dial Feet Locations: 2.5, 21.0, 43.5
Case Screw Locations: 4.0, 35.0
Technically this is a Hamilton watch in so far as Hamilton had taken over Illinois effective January 1, 1928. However circa 1929 this watch would have been largely produced using Illinois tooling, parts & labor. Production wasn't removed from the Springfield, Illinois plant & transferred to the Hamilton factory, until 1932 by which time the ravages of the Great Depression had forced consolidation of operations.
Anyways this watch gives us some idea of what a well-heeled gangster would have hung from his vest at the tail-end of the Prohibition Era. What surprised me more than even its gaudiness (using diamonds to set out his initials on the caseback) was the fairly small 6/0 size of Big Al's pocket watch. I'm aware that pocket watch sizes had gradually been shrinking, but I would have expected such a sophisticated thug as Al Capone to have sported a 12 size "gentleman's" timepiece. Of course, by the late 1920s wristwatches were outselling pocket watches by a considerable margin so the smaller sizes were likely considered more stylish by sophisticates such as Scarface.
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HanauMan
Practically Family
- Messages
- 809
- Location
- Inverness, Scotland
Alright, stupid question I know, but how do you folk carry your pocket watches?
I have my father's old pocket watch, a 1920 Waltham with a Dennison case. When he was alive he used to carry it in his shirt pocket.
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As it is a heirloom I won't be using it in case I lose or damage it, but for some time I have been toying with the idea of buying myself a vintage pocket watch. I don't wear suits so I'll never wear a waist coat. Guess the best way would be to wear jeans and keep it in the little watch pocket. But then again, do people actually carry one for day to day use? I like the idea of pulling out a watch in a hunter case and opening the lid to see the time (much like most folk do with their cellphones!!).
I have my father's old pocket watch, a 1920 Waltham with a Dennison case. When he was alive he used to carry it in his shirt pocket.
View media item 1455
As it is a heirloom I won't be using it in case I lose or damage it, but for some time I have been toying with the idea of buying myself a vintage pocket watch. I don't wear suits so I'll never wear a waist coat. Guess the best way would be to wear jeans and keep it in the little watch pocket. But then again, do people actually carry one for day to day use? I like the idea of pulling out a watch in a hunter case and opening the lid to see the time (much like most folk do with their cellphones!!).
Alternatives to the vest pocket for housing pocket watches include:
Necklace ~ men used to wear watches hung around their necks. Some would consider this effeminate these days.
Pants Pocket ~ quite practical if you can still find pants with the small inner pocket. Even so, in my experience these pockets are too small for a vintage pocket watch much larger than 6 size. Anyways with a chain, the chain is affixed to the belt or to a belt loop; alternatively you can use just a fob hanging outside the pant pocket which is grasped to remove the watch. I prefer the more secure chain, I find the sound of a vintage pocket watch hitting the ground to be sickening.
Pocket Watch Pocket ~ these are small pouches through which one's belt loops, especially made to house pocket watchs. May need to be custom made these days.
Pocket Watch Wrist Band ~ these are made such that the pocket watch can be inserted into a leather housing to which straps are attached such that the pocket watch is effectively used as an open face wristwatch. Somewhat bulky however with wristwatches commonly being in the 45-50 mm diameter range, these might just fit in. Again likely custom fabrication would be required. Old World War I photos often depict these as part of the evolution to men's wristwatches proper.
Jacket ~ whether suit jacket, sports jacket, or any other jacket having a breast pocket, a shortish chain can be affixed to the collar button hole (which can be easily created if need be), allowing the watch to be carried securely in the breast pocket. If you've ever seen photos of Frank Hamer of Texas Ranger fame (his crew took down Bonnie & Clyde), you may have noticed that he often wore his pocket watch thusly.
Broach ~ I almost forgot about this. Both men & women used to wear their watches hanging via a chained safety pin-like device affixed to their shirt/blouse. This was less popular with men probably because the bulky & heavy men's pocket watches would tend to detract from the fit of the shirt. I wouldn't want a full-plate 18-size Waltham in a coin silver "hockey puck" of a case dangling from my shirt, intent on tearing the buttons off!
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HanauMan
Practically Family
- Messages
- 809
- Location
- Inverness, Scotland
Thanks for that, plenty to muse over though I'll discard the brooch and necklace options.
I think I'll go with the pants pocket route or maybe look into a leather pocket watch pouch to wear on my belt.
I also think that I could wear it with a denim jacket, keeping it in the pocket and looping the chain thru a button hole.
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I think I'll go with the pants pocket route or maybe look into a leather pocket watch pouch to wear on my belt.
I also think that I could wear it with a denim jacket, keeping it in the pocket and looping the chain thru a button hole.
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Shangas
I'll Lock Up
- Messages
- 6,116
- Location
- Melbourne, Australia
I carry a pretty chunky 16-size Ball railroad watch with me every day of the week. I wear it in my waistcoat pocket. You don't need a suit to wear a waistcoat. I don't know why people have that impression.
If I'm not wearing my waistcoat, then the watch sits in the fob-pocket of my jeans or trousers; the 'fifth pocket' on the right. It's my experience that all but the very largest of largest pocketwatches, will fit comfortably inside this pocket without problems - partially because it's designed to be a watch-pocket. If you want a good test, see if you can fit four fingers (three, if you have large hands), into your watch-pocket on your jeans or slacks. If you can, then you watch will also fit.
If I'm not wearing my waistcoat, then the watch sits in the fob-pocket of my jeans or trousers; the 'fifth pocket' on the right. It's my experience that all but the very largest of largest pocketwatches, will fit comfortably inside this pocket without problems - partially because it's designed to be a watch-pocket. If you want a good test, see if you can fit four fingers (three, if you have large hands), into your watch-pocket on your jeans or slacks. If you can, then you watch will also fit.
