Opinions on tapered belt length button up jackets

[TartuWolf]

Greetings from Estonia!

I've been planning my first "proper" jacket purchase.
Got most of my desired measurements down pretty nicely. (17.75 shoulder, 20.25 ptp, 17.25 waist, 17.75 hip, 25.25 sleeve, 23.25 back)
Decided on what kind of leather I want. (veg/combo aniline midweight waxy/oily smooth brown with lots variation / highs-lows)
Main thing left is to decide the model and maker.

In terms of makers my main choices are currently SB, Aero and 5*. Communicating with all of them and seeing how it goes. Pros and cons to each, I know. Ruling out US makers and Japan makers due to proximity. Also ruled out Thedi because the patterns / style is not what I'm looking for, although I have no doubts about their quality.

Main topic of this thread - model / style of the jacket.
Currently I have narrowed it down to two options:
- Minimalist cross-zip with no epaulets, no belt, ideally half belt back for waist adjustments, hand warmer pockets and one chest pocket. SB Pacific / Detroit. Aero Hooch Hauler / Bootlegger.
- Short / belt length button up with V collar. SB Klondike. Aero Maxwell / Moonshiner.

All clear with the cross-zips, for me they seem to be very well suited for the kind of 2-3" taper from ptp to waist/hem that I would like.
My main question is about the button ups.

From what I gathered the kind of button up style I'm thinking about are called short car coats? Some other similar models I've look into have been Himel Canuck, RRL Barringer car coat, Freewheelers Brakeman, Y'2 car coat. The mentioned models from SB and Aero. I guess the Aero Teamster also falls into this category albeit being a bit longer.

One thing that most of them seem to have in common is that they are usually slightly longer - below jean back pocket openings. I would ideally like mine to fall slightly below the belt so that I could still stick (at least) my thumbs into my front pockets without lifting the jacket up too much.
Another thing that they seem to have in common is being very straight cut / boxy. Not taper from ptp to the hem. I have not seen too many examples of them being tapered, but those that I have seen look pretty nice.

I'll add some photos that I have found in the forum or online to illustrate a bit what I mean. I don't know/remember who the photos belong to, so if the owner would like me to remove their photo - please tell me.

Examples of tapered / shorter ones that I've seen:

But most tend to my boxier/straighter and longer:

I have a lot more example gathered, but I guess you catch my drift.

So, what do you think about making a slightly-below-belt length button up that has a nice taper from ptp to the hem?
Also considering that I'm not going with thin / super soft leather but rather a midweight medium stiffness leather. Ideally HH.

Extra questions:
- Number of buttons - seems like 3-4 excluding the top one seems a good number?
- Location of button button - most models that I've seen have the bottom button quite a bit away from the hem. To me it seems like it would be useful to have one a bit closed to the hem so that you can properly keep the bottom closed. But I guess it depends on how you wear it.

 

[Pandemic]

I’ll add that the Rockafella has a a more hourglass taper - narrowing at the waist and then coming out a little at the hips. It’s a shorter jacket, but this sort of taper would work well on something a bit longer.

 

[TartuWolf]

I’ll add that the Rockafella has a a more hourglass taper - narrowing at the waist and then coming out a little at the hips. It’s a shorter jacket, but this sort of taper would work well on something a bit longer.

View attachment 470440

I excluded this model because of some of the front panel style elements as well as the very long / very open suit style collar. But in terms of taper and length - yeah, looks amazing on you, exactly what I would like mine to look like.

 

[nattevagten]

I’ll add that the Rockafella has a a more hourglass taper - narrowing at the waist and then coming out a little at the hips. It’s a shorter jacket, but this sort of taper would work well on something a bit longer.

View attachment 470440

Do you think that kind of a taper could be requested for PMHM as well? It’s exactly the roomy mid-section/lower back area that bothers me with the standard PMHM pattern. The bottom hem of my PMHM is identical to my other jackets and fits great, but the waist area is a mess.

 

[MrProper]

I think you get your 4" taper on all models of Aero. In addition, you can also increase the front drop, if you want to be shorter in the back, for example.
Your waist measurement is not taken into account by Aero. There is always a V and no Y. So a line from P2P down to the Hem. At least that was always the case for me. A Halfbelt I wanted to have rather Y-shaped, but that was not possible.

With 5* you can specify every imaginable dimension. Then usually a new pattern is made, which costs a small extra charge.

I once thought I really needed jackets with buttons, only to find out that I like zippers better. Especially if you often wear the jackets open.

As a "first" jacket I would probably rather take one with zipper and save the buttons for a trucker from Aero ;-)

 

[MrProper]

Do you think that kind of a taper would be possible to request for a PMHM as well? It’s exactly the mid-section that bothers me with the PMHM pattern. The jacket is simply too roomy in standard sizing.

4" taper.
You get the hourglass taper only if the pattern provides for it.

 

[TartuWolf]

I think you get your 4" taper on all models of Aero. In addition, you can also increase the front drop, if you want to be shorter in the back, for example.
Your waist measurement is not taken into account by Aero. There is always a V and no Y. So a line from P2P down to the Hem. At least that was always the case for me. A Halfbelt I wanted to have rather Y-shaped, but that was not possible.

With 5* you can specify every imaginable dimension. Then usually a new pattern is made, which costs a small extra charge.

I once thought I really needed jackets with buttons, only to find out that I like zippers better. Especially if you often wear the jackets open.

As a "first" jacket I would probably rather take one with zipper and save the buttons for a trucker from Aero ;-)

I have requested stock measurements for several Aero models from Holly (Moonshiner 36,Maxwell 34,Hooch Hauler 36,Bootlegger 34), still waiting for the reply. But she did mention that they don't have the hem/waist measurements at all.
"I’m afraid we don’t have all of these measurements logged, we only note chest, shoulder and back and sleeve lengths so I wouldn’t be able to give you exact measurements"

Another interesting quote from communication with Aero that might be useful for someone looking at similar models:
"The Moonshiner is the slimmest cut of the two, I would suggest a size 36” in this cut to allow a comfortable fit over your sweater. The Maxwell you could go for a 34” – no smaller to allow for your sweater. Generally, we don’t advise sizing too slim in a button front style as it’ll strain the buttons and cause pulling if worn too small.
The Hooch Hauler, again I would suggest a 36” for use over your sweater as this is very slim cut with high and narrow armholes and sleeves. The Bootlegger is a 1950s cut, so relaxed fit at the shoulders/chest, I would say a size 34” here but it wouldn’t be as slim as the Hooch Hauler."

What do you mean by "I think you get your 4" taper on all models of Aero"? That you can request it or that the models I mentioned have a strong taper by default?

I think this V vs Y shape thing is true for almost all makers. Only really custom ones can do a Y shape I suppose. For example 5*, like you said, you can basically do anything. But I'm not really feeling experienced enough in this topic to go fully custom with them. On the other hand I would probably manage to order a decent jacket from them and would learn a lot from the jacket that arrives. And it doesn't cost a fortune to order from them. Maybe someone experienced who has a lot of free time could send me PM and consult me a bit about ordering from 5*? I would appreciate it.

The thing is that my current 2 jackets (which fit 90% well, mainly being too long in the body) are both zipped jackets. I really want to try a button up one. Maybe the best idea would be to first get a cheaper button up jacket (like 5*) and see how I like it before buying a proper one from SB/Aero.
I usually wear my jackets closed I would say.

 

[MrProper]

That you can request it or that the models I mentioned have a strong taper by default?

The former. You choose the size that suits you best from the P2P and shoulders and then you specify your desired customizations.
For my PHWM, for example, size 44, P2P at least 23.75", shoulders extended to 19.75", tapered by 4".

The Aero Crew will tell you what is possible and what is not.

I also like to look at the stock jackets at thurston bros because the measurements are pretty well specified. Then I get a feeling of how the jackets tend to turn out in the respective size.

 

[Canuck Panda]

@TartuWolf I've got some of the jacket models you are looking at. Different size but the drop ratio is the same. I put the actual measurements on the picture.

Aero Moonshiner - This one has very wide upper body that tapers dramatically to the hem. This is a stock size 40 in Black Badalassi with a quilted liner. The hem is on the tight side for me, I believe this is why Aero say it's a slim pattern, very tight hem. Can't layer in this jacket because the sleeves taper a lot at the elbow, that's why I went with the quilted lining.

Aero Hooch Hauler - This one is closer to the Japanese ") (" shape. Size 42 in Vicenza HH and a quilted lining. Which Aero warned me about being too tight and I didn't listen. Some point down the road I'd hope the quilt would flatten more or I would reline this in regular wool. Usually the Hooch is zipper closure, I asked for button closure as a custom feature. The Hooch Hauler has more normal sleeves than the Moonshiner, so it's easier to wear too in that sense.

Simmonsbilt Tailgunner Size 42 in brown aniline "Japanese" Horsehide and cotton lining. I believe this is just brown standard aniline Shinki (chocolate), but Debs never confirmed or denied when I asked. This would be the leather to get from SB imo. The Tailgunner runs half size bigger than the Hooch in the same tag size. And SB lengthen their jackets by an inch by default like how Thurston specs their Aeros.

I will throw in the Rainbow Country Japanese single rider as a benchmark for that ")(" torso look. Size 42 in brown aniline Shinki. The big difference between this Shinki and the other is I believe it is tumbled. The Japanese cut has wide shoulder, tighter chest, and bigger hem. Same sleeves as Hooch Hauler. This one is also made with heavily skived seams so there is no bulk in any of the connecting parts. I would not recommand tweaking the measurements to match the Japanese cut because no one is skiving and stitching the jacket like Rainbow Country, this one doesn't wear like a leather jacket with all that tumbling and skiving.

As for leather choices, here is my very bias opinions:
1) 1.1mm (medium weight) CXL FQHH
2) Badalassi
3) CXL Steerhide (only if you like THICK leather, CXL steer will work well in this case)
4) Shinki
5) Vicenza

The better the leather material, the more premium the (leather) jacket will feel. Good luck.

 

[TartuWolf]

@Canuck Panda
Thank you for your extremely detailed response.
I'm a big fan of your 2020 Hooch Hauler thread, which inspired me to have the HH on top of my list for my first proper jacket.

In terms of leather:
Getting a package of samples from SB coming in, might help me decide on the leather if I order from them. Based on research and visuals so far I would go with their "Italian Epsom Brown Horsehide. 1-1.2mm. Veg tan. Medium weight."
In terms of Aero leathers I would go with thinner CXL FQHH (normal or tumbled), battered horsehide or kelpie horsehide (also inspired mainly by you!). Have not been too impressed with the Badalassi from the (many) photos that I looked over and the price premium. CXL streerhide is too thick for my taste. Vicenza is a big no no from various descriptions that I've read.

Damn that moonshiner looks good on you.
I'll recap what you gave in terms of measurements in proportions (for myself mainly):

Model	Shoulder	Chest	Waist	Hem
My hypothetical ideal	87%	100%	84%	86.5%
Aero Moonshiner (quilted)	85%	100%	87%	83%
Aero HH (button,quilted)	82%	100%	89%	89%
SB Tailgunner	85%	100%	89%	91%
RC Single Rider	87.5%	100%	91%	95%

The moonshiner does seem to be the closest to what I'm thinking about.
Nice info. Sorry for the math/data/table approach to this whole thing, I'm a data scientist/engineer

 

[Aloysius]

A few points. The reason the jackets you found in the first post are so mixed is because you're mixing up two different types of jackets. A "car coat" is mid thigh or longer. What you are looking for is some variety of a "cossack jacket", called a "campus jacket" by some brands. It is a buttoned, waist length jacket type.

As for makers, I would always avoid Simmons Bilt because of their behavior. In case you're not aware, their "Tailgunner" (and all of their jackets) are actually patterns they stole from Aero, as was confirmed in court. Their business model was to steal Aero's patterns and sell them at a cheaper price with the intention to drive Aero out of business. This failed, but I still would not support them on principle.

About Five Star, I like them. I think buying their direct repro jackets like the military ones and the Penney cross-zip is good because they are copied from real good vintage patterns. But something like this I would not personally risk. Too much chance of a poor fitting jacket you cannot move around in.

In terms of Aero leathers I would go with thinner CXL FQHH (normal or tumbled), battered horsehide or kelpie horsehide (also inspired mainly by you!). Have not been too impressed with the Badalassi from the (many) photos that I looked over and the price premium. CXL streerhide is too thick for my taste. Vicenza is a big no no from various descriptions that I've read.

Vicenza is actually a very, very nice leather. The only reason it was so criticized on this website is that it came out at at a time when TFL was obsessed with the heaviest possible leathers (sometimes to absurd results that were completely unwearable.) The other thing about Vicenza is that because it is not super stiff and not a pull up, it won't instantly look super creased; it will take a month or two of wear to look that way–but in my opinion, that is not a bad thing at all!

The thin CXL is nice. I would also look at Jerky, which despite the ugly name (which a dealer in the US came up with) that I wish they would change, is kind of like a slimmer British CXL.

Another great leather is Aero's goat, which doesn't get talked about nearly enough here. It feels extremely supple, has a beautiful pebble grain, has perfect weather resistance, drapes better than almost anything.

Frankly, if I were going for a buttoned or campus/cossack type jacket, the goat would almost certainly be the leather I choose. The drape suits the design. It would simply look weird with stiff chest panels.

 

[Canuck Panda]

@Canuck Panda
Thank you for your extremely detailed response.
I'm a big fan of your 2020 Hooch Hauler thread, which inspired me to have the HH on top of my list for my first proper jacket.

In terms of leather:
Getting a package of samples from SB coming in, might help me decide on the leather if I order from them. Based on research and visuals so far I would go with their "Italian Epsom Brown Horsehide. 1-1.2mm. Veg tan. Medium weight."
In terms of Aero leathers I would go with thinner CXL FQHH (normal or tumbled), battered horsehide or kelpie horsehide (also inspired mainly by you!). Have not been too impressed with the Badalassi from the (many) photos that I looked over and the price premium. CXL streerhide is too thick for my taste. Vicenza is a big no no from various descriptions that I've read.

Damn that moonshiner looks good on you.
I'll recap what you gave in terms of measurements in proportions (for myself mainly):

Model	Shoulder	Chest	Waist	Hem
My hypothetical ideal	87%	100%	84%	86.5%
Aero Moonshiner (quilted)	85%	100%	87%	83%
Aero HH (button,quilted)	82%	100%	89%	89%
SB Tailgunner	85%	100%	89%	91%
RC Single Rider	87.5%	100%	91%	95%

The moonshiner does seem to be the closest to what I'm thinking about.
Nice info. Sorry for the math/data/table approach to this whole thing, I'm a data scientist/engineer

I like the way you roll with the statistical numbers. Math is the universal language!

About Aero horsehides, I've got the battered horsehide in tan and the seal. Both are very waxy, dry hand feel. The tan has a lot of depth of colors but mine is stiff vs the softer batter seal. Kelpie is quite smooth and can seem rubbery. It is very soft and oily, drapes exceptional well, wet hand feel. CXL FQHH really hits the spot just right but really only works in the 1.1mm thickness, especially for buttons. I have one CXL FQHH in this 1.1mm thickness and I wish all my FQHH were this thickness. It will not stiff up in the cold, but still feel more robust and deeper colors than the other leathers. CXL FQHH have that oily wet hand feel.

About SB horsehides, I've got the Lux which I cannot recommend, and their Japanese horsehide which I think is their best option, even over the Blattwerk. I don't have the others to make a good comments. But their Japanese horsehide is the oily type, wet hand feel. I'd be interested to see what the Epsom horsehide is like, don't see them around that much.

As always, I would suggest to get leather sample before making any purchase and make sure the sample came from the batch that will be used on the jacket. Hand feel of the leather just can't be communicated through photos or words.

 

[Aloysius]

Canuck, I was expecting your usual endorsement of the GOAT!

 

[TartuWolf]

@Aloysius
Thank you for your detailer response, lots of good info here as well.
I'll address some points you made.

The name of the style - yes I was aware of both "cossack " and "campus" style names, but for me both of those are strongly associated with a different collar, a rounded one, like the Aeromarine. That's why I was hesitant to use those style names, as I want specifically a traditional(?) W shaped collar. So I guess what I'm looking for is a kind of a mix between a car coat and a cossack/campus.

I know the Simmons Bilt story. Read the whole thing on these forums. My own personal opinion is that whatever happened was quite a long time ago (10y+?) and the staff in SB has changed. I guess they also have their own patterns now. For example Deborah mentioned that the "Pacific" is her own creation. Don't know about the Detroit and Klondike. And if their customer service, turn around, prices, customization (Aero refusing to use proper zippers?), sizing (reluctant to give stock measurements) turns out superior while quality being similar (seems to be agreed upon in these forums) then I don't see why I should not order from them.

Leathers:
Oh boy, big separate topic here eh?
Goat - I would say goat has a LOT of fans here. At least from what I've seen. But I really dislike pebbly leather, so it's automatic discard for me.
Vicenza and Jerky.. I won't be able to find all the references to these two, but here's a nice older thread discussing the differences between these two and their characteristics in general:
https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/aero-jerky-vs-vizenza-horsehide-a-2.93344/

Some related quotes:

GoAround​

Aero "Jerky Horsehide"
- spray dyed(hence visually more plain)
- scratches are a bit more easily visible
- develops patina quicker
- similar weight/thickness as Vicenza
- a bit more imperfect hides
- a bit stiffer than Vicenza (takes a while to mold to the body)
- relatively resistent to water / water stains not so visible
- no additional costs to the base price

Aero "Vicenza Horsehide"
- dyed throughout (hence visually with more depth)
- scratches a bit less visible
- develops patina slower
- similar weight/thickness as Jerky
- mostly flawless hides
- a bit softer (with a better drape out of the box)
- not as water repellent as Jerky / prone to water stains
- costs 75£ more

Superfluous​

In my subjective opinion, Vicenza is a better quality leather. I think Vicenza is uncorrected, whereas I think (not sure) Jerky is corrected. Vicenza is veg tanned -- Jerky is not.

Monitor​

Jerky is among the nicest, most rounded leathers I've handled. It may just even be my favorite. Really heavy and sturdy, tough hide, that's got that completely natural vibe to it, honest grain and texture which may be why people call it imperfect. Remarkably water resistant and definitely a lot tougher to break in than anything else.

CBI​

I have owned both Vicenza and Jerky Aero A-2's. Both look nice but I agree that the Vicenza drapes much more nicely than the Jerky. The Jerky is lighter weight and sort of crumples up on the wearer vs. a nice draping garment. Both hides will develop nice grain. Jerky will fold/crease and may show grainier results sooner but Vicenza will win out in the long run. That said, there is a price difference - argh. Aero's battered steer is also similar in drape to Jerky. Its smoother at first but develops wear pretty quickly.

Sorry just wanted to gather some nice quotes

A lot of info in those, some conflicting I guess.
But from the many pictures I looked at and various characteristics mentioned I'm rather included to look at other leathers that Aero offers (the ones I mentioned).

 

[Aloysius]

I guess they also have their own patterns now. For example Deborah mentioned that the "Pacific" is her own creation.

They don't, to the point that you'll see mistakes in old Aero patterns appear in new SB jackets… but that's besides the point since you're not interested in that side of things. (At least eight current SB employees were involved in the theft from Aero though, FYI.)

Oh and I definitely wouldn't say their sizing is superior, lol. This is a size 38… (SB insists this is correct sizing and spec, by the way, when the customer questioned it. This exact scenario has happened many, many times to different people.)

 

[TartuWolf]

@Canuck Panda
Very nice comments on the leathers, thank you!

Aero battered HH - One issue with these is that they are all over the place in terms of the "severity" of how "battered" they are. The legendary Teamster that @HoosierDaddy has is absolutely perfect in terms of the tan version. Could hang pictures of it on my wall. But I've also seem some that were heavily over the top. Don't know if seal has the same problem. I'd prefer rather slightly stiffer rather than very soft.

Kelpie - smooth and rubbery sounds kind of nice. Very soft - not so much. Oily, wet hand feel - nice. Have seen one Epaulet Brand video where it looks stunning in terms of character/depth.

Thin (1-1.1mm I guess?) CXL FQHH - yes please. Oily wet hand feel - yes please.

SB leathers - yup, waiting for a sample. Just from pure looks I liked Epsom. If I do end up getting a jacket made from it, I'll be sure to make a review thread with lots of photos in different lighting.

 

[TartuWolf]

@Aloysius
Yes I've seen a lot of hate for SB in FL, I'm aware of it and I'm being careful. Not proud of buying from them due to the history for sure, but also not ready to write them off because of it either. I would not say that I'm "not interested in that side of things", but rather trying to keep a balanced perspective/view, as I do in all things in life.

I have seen the thread of this member and his SB jacket. I am appalled by it as well. Even more reason to be careful and make it very clear under what conditions we are making an agreement with that company in case we come to a point where I am ready to make an order. What I meant by sizing is purely getting measurement information.

Again, huge respect for you and your opinion in this matter. Just keeping an open mind while negotiating with different makers.

 

[Canuck Panda]

Canuck, I was expecting your usual endorsement of the GOAT!

Between Aero's goat and it's selection in horsehides I'd go with the horsehides. They just feel more robust while the thickness is about the same (as Aero's goat). Johnson has the thicker 4oz plus goat but the OP isn't looking at US brands probably due to importing cost and exchange rates which makes a lot of sense. US dollars is very strong right now and it doesn't make sense for non US residents to "overpay" unless it's something that must have from the US brands.

 

[Canuck Panda]

I am in planning phase for a thin (1.1mm) CXL FQHH Cordovan colored Maxwell. The last I heard from Denny was that the current 1.1mm supply is running low/out. And this is the only thickness I would order any of my future FQHH jackets. The old 1.4mm thickness just won't work with buttons without a fight. The 1.4mm FQHH will also chew up the repro Talon without spitting it out. And I have not been able to fully broke one (heavy FQHH) in, yet, no matter what I do. The 1.1mm version doesn't feel any less robust than the 1.4mm one, just makes more sense. Thicker is not better in FQHH case, Steer is different. If the CXL FQHH in natural color is available in the thinner 1.1mm, it'd be much better leather than the battered tan imo. The patina potential is huge, from dark honey to medium brown. I've got one in the thick thickness and while it's still being broken in, the patina is already better than my battered tan.
Aged natrual CXL FQHH (1.5 years)

Batter Tan

Simmonsbilt used to be a better deal than Aero. But since Aero adjusted pricing for the ROW customers three months ago, there isn't much difference in pricing anymore. I believe EU customers falls under the same category as Canadian customers.

SB current pattern is also slightly different than Aero's. The Tailgunner is half size larger than Aero's Hooch pattern in the same tag size, and also inch longer in both sleeve and overall length. I've also got their SBV2 jacket and the similar Aeromarine jacket from Aero, and it's the same story there. SB has 23" P2P while Aero is 22.5", so half size difference seems to be the consistent difference between the two now.

The advantage of going with SB is their niche selection of leathers. They offered things like Kokkolan Elk and "Japanese" horsehides. But they are no where near Aero's capacity so make sure leather is in stock before order or lead time will be long.

For Horween leathers, Aero is the one to go with. Now we just need them to offer 1.1mm FQHH on a regular basis. They can still have their beastly CXL Steers at 4oz but FQHH really will get more love @ 1.1mm thickness. The FQHH jacket at 1.1mm actually feels more "premium" than the thicker 1.4mm jacket because the seams are not as carboard stiff and makes the overall product a lot more appealing.

 

[nattevagten]

I have a jacket in black Epsom horsehide. The leather is similar to CXL FQHH in terms of look and feel, but it’s lighter and easier to wear. I prefer it to the thin version of CXL FQHH, which I found a bit too light.

As for SB, I got two jackets from them, Detroit and J100, both excellent jackets.