Old goatskin vs old horsehide

[Phantomfixer]

Here is a question that may be answered here. Why is it that it appears
(and I stress appears)that goatskin hold up better than horsehide? I am basing this on the A-2 jackets that I have seen over the years. Is it the tanning or just the chemical makeup of the two types of leather. I have seen some awesome horsehides but for the most all the pristine hides have been goat. This thread does not apply to just A-2 jackets.

Having asked this question, why is it that years ago a goatskin A-2 was considered to be postwar or private purchase rather than a issue A-2?
JZ

 

[aswatland]

I have owned/currently own both horse hide and goatskin original A2s. In general goatskin is often in better condition than horsehide. But it is prone to red rot and this appears to be the case with some makers than others. For example some of the batches of goatskin used by Cable and Spiewak seem more prone to rot than the hides used by Rough Wear, Perry, and Doniger. So to answer you question part of the answer lies with the tanning processes used by different tanneries for goat and horse.

Goatskin is the most robust of WW2 leather and if tanned properly will last very well. The characteristics of the hide, with the pebbly finish means it
does not wear as easily as horse or steer and thus can appear almost mint today.

However many naval goatskin jackets display areas of damage and it is thought this is due to exposure to salt.

Clearly the climate a jacket has been stored in since the war is crucial for its survival. Those stored in cooler climates seem to last much better and this is the same for shearlings. B-3s from the warmer US States are often dried out and rotten, whilst those which remained in the UK after the war are often in better shape.

Our knowledge of wartime jackets has increased enormously in the last few years and people now know that goatskin was used in several A2 contracts and for most naval summer flying jackets. Goat, horse and cow were used for private purchase jackets during and immediately after the war.

 

[rumblefish]

I try never to miss any of your posts regarding jackets, Andrew.

 

[Peacoat]

I agree with the Fish; thanks for sharing your knowledge.

 

[andy richards]

Great post and excellent information. Thanks for posting!
Andy

 

[Phantomfixer]

Andrew thanks for the response. I would agree that location of storage is the greatest preservation factor regarding leather and also the location /climate of where the jacket was being used. Speaking of cow... Is it possible that a jacket maker during WWII used cowhide? If it is that hard to tell the difference? Could a company have said "hey we are running low on horsehide but have tons of cowhide. How about we use this cow up on the next shipment?" Just a thought....

 

[aswatland]

There has been discussion about this before and it is likely steerhide was used, but there is no evidence to prove it as far as I know.

 

[H.Johnson]

Just to add a technical point to Andrew's excellent information, the problem of using goatskin for US manufactured garments was, of course, the relative shortage of goats (see e.g. 'Hell Bent for Leather etc.- by Nelson and Parsons).

The answer was to purchase untanned goat hides from Asia (e.g. Afghanistan and Pakistan) which were (and are today) transported in salted and dried form. 'Red rot' or 'read heat' occurs to any type leather when bacteria have taken hold and prevented effective tanning. This is likely where there is a long period in storage, prolonged transport or imperfect preparation (e.g. salting).

In the opinion of most leather professionals I know, the effect of differences in preparation and treatment on the quality and durability of a leather is at least as great as the natural characteristics of the leather itself. So, unless you can see that the same standard quality control procedures were in place, you can't say that goatskin will always outperform horsehide or vice versa.

 

[kampkatz]

The opportunity to learn more about leather and jackets never ends here.
Thanks all of you who are in the know.

 

[H.Johnson]

Red rot

Thanks - but I'm amazed that anyone is interested in this stuff!

If you want to get even more technical, what happens is that in a hot acidic environment sulphurs in the atmosphere (e.g. sulphur dioxide) combine with natural substances in the hide (e.g. tannins) to form hydrogen peroxide. The resulting degradation to the leather prevents effective tanning and that lays the area open to breakdown (rot) by a variety of micro-organisms. It is irreversible.

There is a research centre at Northampton University that is studying the phenomenon. I bet Anne or Arthur could really explain it in detail!

For a more detailed explanation see e.g.
Stambolov, T. (1989) Environmental influences on the weathering of leather. Proceedings of International leather and parchment symposium, Vol 8. May. Deutsches Ledermuseum/Deutsches Schuhmuseum. Pp. 1-5,

 

[Peacoat]

Andrew, not only is it interesting, but many of us find it fascinating, especially your knowledgeable posts about the subject.

 

[Phantomfixer]

So it seems that it is not the hide but how and where the hide is prepped for tanning. So looking back to 1942 would domestic US goat be better than imported goat? It seems that it would. Then it also goes back to conditions of use for the jacket itself.