Nuances of WWII HBT pants??

[Doug C]

Can someone please describe the differences in the Army and Marine "fatigues" that were used during the time of WWII. I want to get a couple pairs but am confused with the names and which ones had which features and changes. I've noticed that some (all possibly?) had a button and tab feature at the bottom of the legs which I like alot. Also though, weren't some of the early models basically like modern khakis (non-cargo)? I may eventually end up getting one of each but would like to know which ones to get first etc. TIA..

Doug C

 

[BellyTank]

Now you're opening a can of worms-

But firstly, US Army and USMC HBT cloth were distictly different- colour and weave/weight. The Army HBT has a narrower Herrinbone weave than the USMC.

The many different styles of Army and USMC HBT pants would be too much explaining for me, maybe someone else can help here.

Have a look at some reenactor vendor web sites:

http://www.atthefront.com/us_uni_hbt.htm

http://www.wwiiimpressions.com/usarmy.html

http://www.wwiiimpressions.com/usmc.html

This should get you started.
Beware- not all repro vendors are equal- and just because they say their product and cloth is the best- they shouldn't be believed.

B
T

 

[Doug C]

Thanks BT.. what about if I just ask about the ones with the tab and button at the bottom of the legs.. which ones are those and what's the pocket situation with 'em ? there don't show in the links that were posted..

Doug C

 

[BellyTank]

Off the top of my head, I can only think of the Army M-43 trousers (I have cotton sateen, same cloth as the M-43 jacket, Cotton twill/drill and later HBT examples)with tabs at the ankles. I have 2 different WW2 USMC and about 5 US Army fatigue trousers but I've just packed them down in the last few days for our house move.

I have many pairs of WW2 US trousers but as I mentioned- M-43 are the only ones I can think of with ankle/cuff tabs.

I don't think I will be unpacking just yet but I may be still be able to photographically illustrate the difference between USMC and US army HBT cloth, if you're interested...

Maybe an American Lounger can advise on your point-

B
T

 

[Doug C]

I don't think I will be unpacking just yet but I may be still be able to photographically illustrate the difference between USMC and US army HBT cloth, if you're interested...

That would be awesome BT.. and I'm really just assuming that the tabbed/button ones I've seen are US, maybe they were British or something else? I will look into the M-43 ones in the mean time.

Doug C

 

[BellyTank]

WW2 British wool serge BD has the tabs.
So do a lot of post war European.
And a lot of others generally-

B
T

 

[BellyTank]

OK- here's some nuance for you.

Here you go-
Both images are photographed from the same distance.

USMC HBT- From a pair of '41 pattern. Very distinct HBT.

US Army HBT- From a pair of Army '42 pattern. Not such a distinct herringbone.
Actually totally different but the "W" is about the same width.

As you can see, they're totally different animals- the USMC HBT is far more distinctive and "both rows" of "V's"
of the "W" are equally apparent.
The cloth is generally harder finished.

Some vendors don't distinguish in their repros and only offer the Army variety but they make USMC uniform items from it and call them authentic.

I bought a pair of USMC "dungarees" from WW2 Impressions, about 8 years ago and they were in the Army cloth.
I'm not sure if they have upgraded but their web site images still show the same as I bought.

So- if you're in the market for repros, now you know what you're looking for.
I hope this is of some use to you- now it's here for the record.


B
T

 

[BellyTank]

OK- I'll make it easy for you-

These are hijacked from a repro vendor but serves this purpose perfectly.

US Army '41 pattern:
Standard 2 hip/slash and 2 rear pocket.

US Army '42 pattern:
Hip height Cargo pockets, no rear pockets.

USMC '41 pattern:
Front and rear patch pockets.
Some have internal front pockets but they're top stitched outside and in the same style as the patch pockets,
rather than a hip/slash front pocket set into the outside leg seam.
Sometimes, the front pockets are flat-top, sometimes angled.

USMC '43 pattern:
Front/hip cargo pockets and crazy butt pocket.

I hope this is definitive enough for you.
I'm sure I haven't covered all variants of HBT fatigue type pants but I've been out of this immediate area of interest for some time.
There are, of course, many other types of WW2 US trousers in wool serge, gaberdine, khaki drill, etc...


B
T

 

[Doug C]

Wow BT, you've out-done yourself ..thanks a ton, that definately clears some things up for me on the subject. Thank you! Now, I'm not seeing the Army's M-43 pants (buttoned leg bottom) on anyone's website (WPG, WWIIimpr,Atthefront) and I noticed that you didn't list them in the above pictures (nor could I find them on ebay) - I wonder are they harder to come by? That would be just my luck . Thanks again pal.

Doug C

 

[Doug C]

OK, well I've seen a pair of these pants on ebay that had the tab/button leg bottoms and didn't have cargo pockets of any kind..

Doug C

 

[BellyTank]

See here-

http://www.wwiiimpressions.com/images/m43pantsconst.JPG

http://www.wwiiimpressions.com/images/m43pantslegs.JPG

B
T

 

[Doug C]

http://www.wwiiimpressions.com/images/m43pantslabel.JPG

Check out the 2nd to last line of this label... tighten tabs to ensure extra warmth.

Think I found them, Sateen material though, not HBT. Apparently ment to be worn over other pants for extra warmth, as well as alone in more temperate conditions, M43.

Doug c

 

[Doug C]

Ah BT we must have been typing at the same time.. yep those are the ones. Pricey though! ouch, but dang they're cool (IMHO).

Doug C

 

[BellyTank]

Yes- the M-43 trou and jacket was a "system"- there was a button-in,
thermal liner for both. Yes again- as I mentioned at the top- sateen.

You'll also see the M-43 Airborne trousers- M-43 pants with added thigh cargo pockets and reinforcing.

I have 3 original pairs, what waist and leg measurements do you have?

B
T

 

[Doug C]

..

what waist and leg measurements do you have?

um, gee.. that's darn nice of you. I'm about a 33/34 waist and about 30 to 32 inseam. Let me know if you've got anything I might be able to use, I'll pay whatever you think is reasonable. Thanks again.

Doug C

 

[BellyTank]

I think that's actually about the size of 2/3 of them.
That's the size I was when I was buying the stuff.
I'll have a look tomorrow most likely...

Good nite-


B
T

 

[MrBern]

BR Spring `07

Funny, I was jsut amused in BananaRepublic by some chinos marked "GarmentDye" that are HBT. Reminded me of first pattern HBT, except zipped and not high waisted. available in Khaki & OD. 100%cotton

 

[Doug C]

Really..? so maybe there's hope for that BR gift cert. I've had forever then..

Doug C

 

[MrBern]

Yeah HBT, really. Check quick, tho. They were part of the spring line, so they might be on sale as the summer lines should be rolling in.

I like them, theyve got a watch pocket, slash side pockets & flapped back pockets.The inside of the right pocket has the little compartment for change.
But the cut isnt as full as oldschool khakis.

 

[jake431]

Yeah HBT, really. Check quick, tho. They were part of the spring line, so they might be on sale as the summer lines should be rolling in.

I like them, theyve got a watch pocket, slash side pockets & flapped back pockets.The inside of the right pocket has the little compartment for change.
But the cut isnt as full as oldschool khakis.

I have these - they have a zipper and aren't high waisted. But they are baggy enough, and loose and not too thick, just the thing for summer.

-Jake