Norfolk Jacket

[BellyTank]

Well!
What about all that.

I'll try and find it- have to go out on the bike now and brave the wind.

Back soon.


B
T

 

[H.Johnson]

Norfolk in the Military

Indeed. In fact, when the British Army was looking to replace its WW1 - pattern Service Dress uniform with a general-purpose combat dress in the middle 1930s, a suit based on a woollen Norfolk jacket and breeches (with gaiters, of course) and a deer-stalker hat was trialled against the continental-influenced battledress blouse and trousers. The WW2 Australian combat jacket was of a similar design to the 'Norfolk' jacket trialled.

As FL members have mentioned in other threads, and as BT says, the Norfolk jacket was not just an item of clothing peculiar to the British Isles. It was an essential item of clothing for British colonial personnel, both military and civilian. It was also adopted by the US Forestry Service, at least one state highway police department in the US and the Canadian Mounted Police.

 

[Creeping Past]

Here's a ref (click on clip titled "page 45") to Norfolk jackets worn by an Australian regiment of horse in Palestine in WW1. Also, Australian army nurses wore them in WW1 and WW2.

 

[BellyTank]

I have that book.
Many Osprey books (good uniforms reference)can be downloaded.


Here are some Australian (WW1)tunics-

http://www.lawranceordnance.com/khaki-and-green/uniforms-first-world-war.html

http://www.schipperfabrik.com/brit_uniforms.html


BTW- I have the Lawrance Ordnance WW1 breeches(mounted).
Bedford Cord, of course and a very nice cloth, it is.


B
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[Creeping Past]

"A khaki-drill Norfolk jacket and trousers, with three pairs of riding breeches, were the mainstay, together with two sets (31s. complete) of white-drill mess jacket and trousers and a silk mess cummerbund..."

Colonial Office dress regulations for civilian officials in West Africa, from On crown service: a history of HM colonial and overseas civil services, 1837 -1997 by Anthony Kirk-Greene

 

[H.Johnson]

I have the book. My grandfather (48th Staffordshire) was involved in the action in Italy described on pages 36-38. British female quasi-military organisations wore similar Norfolk jackets in WW2. There's an Osprey book for that, too!

Here's a ref (click on clip titled "page 45") to Norfolk jackets worn by an Australian regiment of horse in Palestine in WW1. Also, Australian army nurses wore them in WW1 and WW2.

 

[H.Johnson]

Lawrance Ordnance does very good stuff. We're getting into the area where a Norfolk jacket becomes a wool serge bush jacket, are we not?

I have that book.
Many Osprey books (good uniforms reference)can be downloaded.


Here are some Australian (WW1)tunics-

http://www.lawranceordnance.com/khaki-and-green/uniforms-first-world-war.html

http://www.schipperfabrik.com/brit_uniforms.html


BTW- I have the Lawrance Ordnance WW1 breeches(mounted).
Bedford Cord, of course and a very nice cloth, it is.


B
T

 

[BellyTank]

Yes, we are but I think that's good too.
Tangents for all(well... us 3 at least).

Yes, Lawrance make absolutely excellent gear
I have a pair of the trouser braces, too.


B
T

 

[Creeping Past]

The Norfolk jacket in various print articles (a Google timeline).

Including the blue flannel Norfolk, as distinct from the common homespun Norfolk. As seen in Milwaukee, 1902.

Plus the Norfolk jacket for women, in Shetland wool from the New York Times in 1911, and again in 1912, this time in "thin serge and linen".

Just to give a brief summary of our progress so far, we've defined a sporting garment made from various fabrics that was worn in temperate climes and the tropics by military and civilian personnel, and was also unisex to some degree.

 

[BellyTank]

Mr. Creeping Past, do YOU know, specifically, what the "Homespun" cloth
referred to more than once, actually is? Could it be the (American version of the)rough, home-y, hairy cloth we know as Tweed..?

"Homespun" is often the term for home made domestic linens, or cloth resembling them. But would it make sense that with the term "Homespun",
they are actually talking about (when talking about Norfolk jackets)Tweed type cloth, without knowing the name of it? Tweed was(is), after all, a hand spun/hand woven cloth and the term, "Tweed", I believe, was coined in early Victorian times and I'm sure there were similar cloths being "craft-woven" in America at that time(but not in the traditional Tweed patterns).

Or... what is it otherwise?

A heavy Jean cloth might be nice.


B
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[Creeping Past]

I see what you're getting at. A similar baseline error to the one that led to homespun twill north of the border being misconstrued as 'tweed', allegedly.

I was thinking of fabric made from readily available flax or hemp fibre thread. There's a concise account of such fabric in the US, here. Maybe the image of Ghandi spinning khadi thread has warped my mind away from wool.

As you can tell, I don't actually know.

 

[BellyTank]

Yes- I already saw those two today.

You realise the symbol in the Indian flag is Ghandi's khadi wheel?
Most folks have no clue what it is.

I have a nice Khadi silk Kurta- the two tone/nuanced natural silk colour.

It is conceivable that what was/is termed as Tweed in Scotland, Ireland, England, was being spun and woven in America, where that term would not have naturally occurred- isn't it. Homespun/Tweed..?
Homespun being the term for a similar wool cloth- accepting(perhaps wrongly) that they were talking woolens. I hadn't imagined they were talking about a hemp/linen cloth.

But then WHO KNOWS?

B
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[Creeping Past]

Not us, that's for sure. Where are the lost people of The Past, with their hidden histories, when you need them?

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Homespun/Tweed..?

Homespun being the term for a similar wool cloth- accepting (perhaps wrongly) that they were talking woolens. I hadn't imagined they were talking about a hemp/linen cloth.

In a 1930s issue of Esquire magazine, the type of cloth in the '30s jacket below was referred to as "homespun". It certainly contains wool and is somewhat sandpapery, but seems to have cotton in it too.

And here's a 1930s suit with the same type of "homespun" cloth:

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[BellyTank]

Does remind me of the Civil War era "Jean Cloth"- wool/cotton.
Kind of Tweed-y. Also resembles "Thornproof" tweed- tight, with a hard finish.


B
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[Creeping Past]

Wait for the hype-revival of American Tweed. Coming soon to a workwear boutique nowhere near you...

Edit: It's here already. They call it 'wool denim'.

Plus:

Marc's pics do look like Keeper's Tweed, which I think is the thornproof is wool/cotton fabric you mean.

Jean cloth = wool/cotton twill = you're more or less right about homespun being variant tweed.

So that's that, then. NEXT!

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Marc's pics do look like Keeper's Tweed, which I think is the thornproof is wool/cotton fabric you mean.

I've seen and felt Keeper's Tweed before, but the so-called "homespun" cloth in the jackets above is not the same: it has a grittier, nubbier, less tight "hand" than Keeper's Tweed. In fact, I've never seen such this "homespun" cloth in suits made after the 1950s.

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[Marc Chevalier]

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A fantastic American Norfolk jacket (probably once part of a suit) from the early 1920s. Sorry for the lousy photos. (Not mine.)

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[BellyTank]

I was talking about (Irish) Thornproof- I had a 3 pce suit in it.
It was way lighter than a Keeper's, they're usually very heavy.
It was lighter, very tight and dense and yes, nubby.
Scratchy, almost.


B
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[Marc Chevalier]

The so-called "homespun" cloth I'm talking about is lighter, nubby and scratchy...but it's not really tight or dense. In fact, if you hold the (unlined) back of the jacket to the light and look through the inside of the back, the light comes right in through the weave's pores.

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