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Nazi deserters have reputations restored at last

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Nazi deserters have reputations restored at last

Veronika Oleksyn
AP
4:00AM Friday Oct 23, 2009

Richard Wadani still remembers the sick feeling in his stomach the morning he left Hitler's Wehrmacht in October 1944, knowing as he crawled through a tangle of barbed wire as dawn broke that one wrong move would cost him his life.

Yesterday, more than six decades after the end of World War II, Austria's Parliament agreed to rehabilitate deserters like Wadani who were criminalised by the Nazis for refusing to continue serving in the Third Reich's armed forces.

"We've finally reached our goal," the 87-year-old said. "From the beginning, we were seen as traitors."

The blanket measure, which could become law within weeks, clears the names and reputations of men who were either sentenced to death or shunned by some in Austrian society after the war for standing up to Hitler and his followers.

Austria became part of a Greater Germany early on March 12, 1938, when Wehrmacht troops crossed into the country to ensure a smooth takeover in what became known as the "Anschluss".

Austria's two right-wing parties opposed the rehabilitation measure, which was backed by the governing coalition and Greens. In the weeks leading up to yesterday's vote, the right-wing parties argued that decisions to rehabilitate deserters should be made on a case-by-case basis.

Last month, Freedom Party chief Heinz-Christian Strache caused a stir when he argued that deserters should not be rehabilitated because they may have killed others while trying to leave the force.

"One shouldn't retrospectively make the mistake of glorifying these people," Strache said. "They were often also murderers."

But other politicians, such as Justice Minister Claudia Bandion-Ortner, called the rehabilitation an important symbolic act.

To Wadani, honorary chairman of an Austrian association that seeks recognition for deserters, the parliamentary action marked the end of a decades-long struggle.

"We have always been convinced that what we did was right," Wadani said, adding many deserters were "broken" by the negative reactions they received - sometimes even from their own families and loved ones.

Experts say it is hard to estimate how many Austrian men deserted the Wehrmacht, since most may have been afraid to come forward publicly out of fear they or their families would be shamed.

At most, about 300 were still alive today, said Hannes Metzler, a political scientist who has researched the issue for years. During the Nazi era, 1200 to 1400 were believed to have been executed for desertion, he said.
 

Grant Fan

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Well it seems good that people who deserted the Nazi party are forgiven, or at least in my mind it seems good, and it seems like a better late then never type of thing too.
 

p51

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Yeah, but it's easy to say all this now, but how many of them were really not wanting to serve Hitler, as opposed to how many just didn't want to get killed and really didn't care who was in charge or what they were doing otherwise?
Kid of like the people in any military who have no issues with getting the college money and doing a slack job in uniform, then when the baloon goes up, they suddenly find they are consiencious objectors, only because they just don't want to go do what they'd been paid to do when it was peacetime.
Just sayin'...
 

Torpedo

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p51 said:
Yeah, but it's easy to say all this now, but how many of them were really not wanting to serve Hitler, as opposed to how many just didn't want to get killed and really didn't care who was in charge or what they were doing otherwise?

:arated:
 

reetpleat

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p51 said:
Yeah, but it's easy to say all this now, but how many of them were really not wanting to serve Hitler, as opposed to how many just didn't want to get killed and really didn't care who was in charge or what they were doing otherwise?
Kid of like the people in any military who have no issues with getting the college money and doing a slack job in uniform, then when the baloon goes up, they suddenly find they are consiencious objectors, only because they just don't want to go do what they'd been paid to do when it was peacetime.
Just sayin'...

I was thinking the same thing. Not to vilify or heroize anyone. But, I can kind of understand how other Germans might have thought, hey, you abandoned our cause, or your contrymen, etc. Now, easy for us to say, because the winners have decided that the losers were wrong and anyone who deserted from them was right.

But how do you feel about deserters in wwII from the american side, who may have decided they were not willing to kill or be killed for any cause? are they automatically wrong becuase our side was the right side, or the just cause? How about WWI pacifist quakers?

Now, don't get me wrong. i might be completely opposite if the above quoted opinion, yet agree at the same time. for the record, i support this absolution of deserters whole heartedly, but I also support the pardon if viet nam era so called "draft dodgers" who fled to Canada. is that too political. You may remove it. For the sake of the rules, i won't go into the present.
 

reetpleat

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p51 said:
how many just didn't want to get killed and really didn't care who was in charge or what they were doing otherwise?
QUOTE]

As far as I am concerned, I am fine with them being off the hook for the above alone. Let's face it, most people in most wars fiit the above description.
 

Viola

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p51 said:
Yeah, but it's easy to say all this now, but how many of them were really not wanting to serve Hitler, as opposed to how many just didn't want to get killed and really didn't care who was in charge or what they were doing otherwise?
Kid of like the people in any military who have no issues with getting the college money and doing a slack job in uniform, then when the baloon goes up, they suddenly find they are consiencious objectors, only because they just don't want to go do what they'd been paid to do when it was peacetime.
Just sayin'...

Who cares? Seriously, being a lazy slacker isn't nearly as harmful even if it is self-centered.

Oh they might have killed somebody leaving - I don't care about that either, honestly.

The rest of Austria didn't want to pardon them because they didn't want to admit that, self-centered or noble, you COULD have said no. They'd like it to be remembered as no man had any choice whatsoever so it was all a terrible accident and nobody's fault. So much easier that way.
 

Torpedo

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Viola said:
Who cares? Seriously, being a lazy slacker isn't nearly as harmful even if it is self-centered.

Oh they might have killed somebody leaving - I don't care about that either, honestly.

The rest of Austria didn't want to pardon them because they didn't want to admit that, self-centered or noble, you COULD have said no. They'd like it to be remembered as no man had any choice whatsoever so it was all a terrible accident and nobody's fault. So much easier that way.

We are not talking about the same thing. We are discussing the propriety, or legitimacy, of soldiers deserting from the army. You are alluding to the willingness to knowingly committing war crimes or genocide-related activities. It is not the same thing.
 

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reetpleat said:
But how do you feel about deserters in wwII from the american side, who may have decided they were not willing to kill or be killed for any cause?

For what it's worth, I'd read an article (ages ago) that estimated there were approximately 10,000 American, British and German deserters between in France - behind the Allied front lines - from June to December 1944.

Some of them created a crime wave by robbing the supply convoys of the Red Ball Express and selling whatever cargo they looted on the black market (medical supplies and fuel were high priority times).

The implication was that in some cases, the former enemies were working together (which makes KELLY'S HEROES almost a case of 'art imitates life').

Due to Allied censorship, this doesn't get covered in conventional history books. I'd like to see more about it, particularly from the Army's C.I.D. (Criminial Investigations) branch.

Makes me miss Twitch, he'd have probably known something about this...
 

reetpleat

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Viola said:
Who cares? Seriously, being a lazy slacker isn't nearly as harmful even if it is self-centered.

Oh they might have killed somebody leaving - I don't care about that either, honestly.

The rest of Austria didn't want to pardon them because they didn't want to admit that, self-centered or noble, you COULD have said no. They'd like it to be remembered as no man had any choice whatsoever so it was all a terrible accident and nobody's fault. So much easier that way.


I have to agree.
 

reetpleat

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Story said:
For what it's worth, I'd read an article (ages ago) that estimated there were approximately 10,000 American, British and German deserters between in France - behind the Allied front lines - from June to December 1944.

Some of them created a crime wave by robbing the supply convoys of the Red Ball Express and selling whatever cargo they looted on the black market (medical supplies and fuel were high priority times).

The implication was that in some cases, the former enemies were working together (which makes KELLY'S HEROES almost a case of 'art imitates life').

Due to Allied censorship, this doesn't get covered in conventional history books. I'd like to see more about it, particularly from the Army's C.I.D. (Criminial Investigations) branch.

Makes me miss Twitch, he'd have probably known something about this...

I don't realy know, but esspecially in a time back then when things wre les organized, all kinds of crazy stuff went on and a lot more every man for himself than we would like th think. saw an interesting documenteray on viet nam. towards the end of the war, many soldiers refused to go out on partol, and the ocmmand knew better than to try to force them.

loved that movie with george clooney, Thhree Kings.
 

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Story said:
For what it's worth, I'd read an article (ages ago) that estimated there were approximately 10,000 American, British and German deserters between in France - behind the Allied front lines - from June to December 1944.

Some of them created a crime wave by robbing the supply convoys of the Red Ball Express and selling whatever cargo they looted on the black market (medical supplies and fuel were high priority times).

The implication was that in some cases, the former enemies were working together (which makes KELLY'S HEROES almost a case of 'art imitates life').

Due to Allied censorship, this doesn't get covered in conventional history books. I'd like to see more about it, particularly from the Army's C.I.D. (Criminial Investigations) branch.

I find that incredibly interesting. I would love to find out more about that. It could be an interesting angle to remake Kelley's Heroes.
 

Story

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Django said:
I find that incredibly interesting. I would love to find out more about that. It could be an interesting angle to remake Kelley's Heroes.

Me too, haven't seen anything further than that one article years ago - I'd think it'd require digging in the National Archives, under Military Police or CID records - along with a wheelbarrow of FOIA requests.
 

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Torpedo said:
We are not talking about the same thing. We are discussing the propriety, or legitimacy, of soldiers deserting from the army. You are alluding to the willingness to knowingly committing war crimes or genocide-related activities. It is not the same thing.

p51 was pointing out not all deserters were doing so out of moral conviction beyond not getting shot. A valid point. Still not, in my mind, enough to besmirch their reputations compared to serving with Axis forces regardless of the legality of such and with the understanding that certainly not every infantryman was more than just a cold frightened man and certainly not the Butcher of Buchenwald.

I cannot see how refusing to wear the uniform was more cowardly OR harmful than wearing it.

My two cents, value reduced for inflation, sir.
 

Edward

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reetpleat said:
But how do you feel about deserters in wwII from the american side, who may have decided they were not willing to kill or be killed for any cause? are they automatically wrong becuase our side was the right side, or the just cause? How about WWI pacifist quakers?

Very pertinent points, and this especially. It takes a brave man to stand up and be a conscientious objector whatever the army.... even moreso if his "side" turns out to be the victor.

Story said:
Due to Allied censorship, this doesn't get covered in conventional history books. I'd like to see more about it, particularly from the Army's C.I.D. (Criminial Investigations) branch.

Makes me miss Twitch, he'd have probably known something about this...

History has always been written by the victor, and, alas, in WW2 just as any conflict the dark side of the victors has been as covered up as anything. A lot of folks won't tolerate the truth coming out, either - look at the reaction you get, for example, when you raise the truth of what an unpleasant person Churchill actually was. [huh]
 

reetpleat

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Viola said:
p51 was pointing out not all deserters were doing so out of moral conviction beyond not getting shot. A valid point. Still not, in my mind, enough to besmirch their reputations compared to serving with Axis forces regardless of the legality of such and with the understanding that certainly not every infantryman was more than just a cold frightened man and certainly not the Butcher of Buchenwald.

I cannot see how refusing to wear the uniform was more cowardly OR harmful than wearing it.

My two cents, value reduced for inflation, sir.

It is interesting because while I think that fighting to support the German government would have to be, to my mind, a bad thing. But to the Germans, it wa the patriotic thing to do for their country and family.

Of course, the winning side wants to make out that they wre all wrong evil people and we were all right and good. they do not want to allow for the gray area of the fact that it is all about politics and one conntry trying to be mor powerful, wealthy, more colonies, more trade, etc than the other. Especially if one examines WWI, it is hard to see it as any mor than a bunch of empires fighting for supremacy, with no clear good and bad guys.

WWII is easier to see in black and white terms because of the Holocaust which was clearly bad. But I think few German soldiers were fighting to preserve the killing of Jews. yet to some extent or other, they were aware of it.
 

p51

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Of the 19,000 or so US men who deserted in WW2, not all of them were ever found or turned themselves in after the war. Some are missing to this day. They were referred to as “The lost division” during the war. I could assume some lived quiet lives in other countries, other came to nefarious ends and were never found and God alone knows what happened to the rest. There was a decent movie that touched on deserters and the black market, loosely based on a true story: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Joe_and_the_Showgirl
reetpleat said:
WWII is easier to see in black and white terms because of the Holocaust which was clearly bad. But I think few German soldiers were fighting to preserve the killing of Jews. yet to some extent or other, they were aware of it.
I have met my fair share of German vets and I am convinced that many of them had no idea. Think of it, you’re on the Russian Front, barely surviving day to day, you’re from some small Bavarian village and before you answered Adolf’s telegram, you’d never been more than a few miles from your home. Your home town has been bombed numerous times and you have no idea if anyone in your family is even alive, much less where they are now. You just got surrounded and now you’re fighting to get back to friendly lines. Would a person like that really be paying attention to what’s going on around them other than the obvious issues at hand? Would rumors even reach you either way? Unless you knew a Jew or someone involved in rounding them up, I’d think it would be very easy for a German soldier to not have a clue as the locals probably didn’t write to the front about it and a soldier (unless involved in it) probably wouldn’t pay much attention either way. I’m not whitewashing anything, but I know how soldiers are and what’s important to them.
I also know German veterans and civilians from the time who firmly believe to this day that if Hitler had stopped at just killing the gypsies, there’d a be a statue of him in every province across Europe. It was amazing how many people I ran across who felt no loss over all the gypsies Hitler had killed.
 

reetpleat

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p51 said:
Of the 19,000 or so US men who deserted in WW2, not all of them were ever found or turned themselves in after the war. Some are missing to this day. They were referred to as “The lost division” during the war. I could assume some lived quiet lives in other countries, other came to nefarious ends and were never found and God alone knows what happened to the rest. There was a decent movie that touched on deserters and the black market, loosely based on a true story: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Joe_and_the_Showgirl
I have met my fair share of German vets and I am convinced that many of them had no idea. Think of it, you’re on the Russian Front, barely surviving day to day, you’re from some small Bavarian village and before you answered Adolf’s telegram, you’d never been more than a few miles from your home. Your home town has been bombed numerous times and you have no idea if anyone in your family is even alive, much less where they are now. You just got surrounded and now you’re fighting to get back to friendly lines. Would a person like that really be paying attention to what’s going on around them other than the obvious issues at hand? Would rumors even reach you either way? Unless you knew a Jew or someone involved in rounding them up, I’d think it would be very easy for a German soldier to not have a clue as the locals probably didn’t write to the front about it and a soldier (unless involved in it) probably wouldn’t pay much attention either way. I’m not whitewashing anything, but I know how soldiers are and what’s important to them.
I also know German veterans and civilians from the time who firmly believe to this day that if Hitler had stopped at just killing the gypsies, there’d a be a statue of him in every province across Europe. It was amazing how many people I ran across who felt no loss over all the gypsies Hitler had killed.

I agree and amm surprised I even wrote that. I don't think I even meant that soldiers all knew about the Jewish extermination. I think I was aluding to the idea that all germans were aware that the Germans wre fighting based on certain ideas about German superiority and desire to restore the previous empire and prominance they had prior to WWI. Which I don't condemn them for completely. But I think that most Germans must have been aware that their army was brutally invading other countries. But then again, every foreigh power of any size, including America was doing the same around the worldnear that time, (phillipines) so I don't think that they are completely off the hook for being soldiers in that army. I also think that many german civilians from the cities and larger town must have beenaware that jews were being repressed. But I don't think that every german was aware that they wre beign killed. Quite the contrary. back then, much of Europe was still quite isolated and communication was not what it is now.
 

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I had some experience of Romania within 13 months of the revolution there, and all the dreadful conditions in the orphanages came out. The attitude of a very high number of regular folks there seemed to be "so? They're only gypsy kids, they don't matter" - and I'd be willing to bet that a very high proportion of folks here in the West wouldn't think much different were it on their doorstep instead of all that way away.

I recently read a website recruiting volunteers for a US Civil War reenactment group. The site explicitly said not to worry if you don't know much or anything about the war, its causes, why the fighting was going on.... as many of the men invovled didn't either. As far as I can make out, this holds true for every major conflict up to and including the present day. Of course, people have more information available to them now with the shape of modern mass media than ever was possible in the late 30s and early 40s... and they didn't have digital cameras or the internet back then. It seems to me reasonable to suppose that information about the death camps, as well as bad military behaviour towards civilians on all sides would have inevitably slipped out as easily then as the likes of the Abu Gharaib prison scandal did in recent years (I think that we can all agree that a fair level of unacceptable behaviour went on there without getting into political debate on the hows / whys and disciplinary actions). I highly doubt that nowadays any government, victor or no, could again have the ability to cover up such an extensive extermination programme for even the brief couple of years Hitler did prior to his defeat. Anyhow, I'm rambling :eek:fftopic: ....
 

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