My New SM Wholesale A-2

[CBI]

thanks all - done...........

 

[Big J]

@pak, yeah, absolutely the principles of flight are a never changing constant. I heard that the USAF is prioritizing PPL holders because they can go to work at 9am on day 1 in a Raptor. Saves millions in training.
During the Vietnam war the USAF had a 2 week conversion course for its pilots to come from other aircraft and qualify on the F-4, and that didn't include any air-to-air.
I used to worry that wearing a WWII patched repro A-2 might give people the wrong idea, but I needn't have worried, there are fantasists out there who think a couple of hours point-to-point in their cub in perfect weather is giving them a taste of WWII fighter piloting! That's so cute!

 

[Peacoat]

All I know is my dad pinged into ATC that we had encountered “moderate” turbulence on a flight back to S. california. He’d hit his head on the ceiling and the autopilot was thrown off and suddenly we were at an attitude on a collision course with a mountain. Not a big deal to him (cool, calm, and collected as pilots must be) but my leg went into an uncontrollable twitch and panic ensued. I couldn’t do it. My anxiety helps with OCD details but I’m just too tense for it. You need to be calm.

Yes, pilots must remain calm in the face of adversity or they won't be around to face adversity again.

In the movies the pilots are often portrayed as yelling into the microphone. That just makes my skin crawl. I have never heard a pilot raise his voice while talking on the radio. Even those who are about to die don't shout. They are too busy figuring the next step so as to avoid death. I heard third hand once about a pilot friend of mine from flight school not staying calm, but he had good reason. Anti-aircraft fire had shot off his rotor blades, and he was falling like a rock. There wasn't much way out of that one, so might as well scream a bit on the way down. RIP Frank Murrietta.

 

[HPA Rep]

Not to belabor the point, but my hours now spent in ground school and flying lessons also brings home how complicated flying is in general. Its easy to take this for granted as aviation is now a normal aspect of daily life for everyone in some form. Back in the day, the level of danger in just flying one of the those old planes with old avionics, design, etc. without all of the modern safety features we have today is quite something to comprehend - let along being shot at by the enemy!!!!

How about flying a WWI aircraft, CBI? Pretty much strapping on an engine. So much was rudimentary, nascent aeronautical engineering, and pure educated guessing. Fires were common, as were blackouts and freezing. And no parachutes, at least for our side. Absolutely scares me stiff.

It's a shame WWI aviation has all but disappeared from historical accounts on the market as these aerial warriors really had some guts and were creating the basic tactics of the job.

 

[HPA Rep]

IMO, an A-2 doesn't look 'right' at all unless there is some blousing going on.... Hence, the A-2's known description as a 'blouson':


So, IMO, no A-2 blousing=lacking in authenticity.....

Such refreshing words! I couldn't agree more, Technonut ... except if you cited the heavier weight of many high-end A-2's being a digression in authenticity.

 

[Big J]

I don't know about pilots 'yelling into the microphone', these guys did. And they dropped the F-bomb a couple of times;

Sounds 'worse' than Top Gun.
As for staying calm, let's remember that Robin Olds first try at shooting down a MiG in Operation Bolo failed because he was massively hung-over from the night before and messed up his 'switchology' in the excitement.

 

[Technonut]

Such refreshing words! I couldn't agree more, Technonut ... except if you cited the heavier weight of many high-end A-2's being a digression in authenticity.

I have been known to post my opinion regarding the heavier weight used in many high-end A-2 repros as being 'unauthentic' in other threads floating around.. The originals as you know were designed to be Summer flight jackets after all... More or less a leather windbreaker

EDIT: I should add that I do commend Eastman for the 'thinner' hides I've seen used for many of their A-2's regardless of how unpopular they may be to folks expecting heavy FQHH when ordered...

This pic of an 'Unnamed Contract' 27753 shows a good example of what I consider to be 'proper' hide-thickness for the A-2 (a good idea of the HH thickness can be seen in the sleeve crease & drape):

Here's another original 'Bronco'? (44th Bomb Group / The Flying Eight Balls):

This pic (at least to my eye) shows the majority of A-2's to be 'windbreakerish', and hides more on the thinner-side than thick (nice example of a 'Private-Purchase' jacket shown worn also ):

 

[thor]

How about flying a WWI aircraft, CBI? Pretty much strapping on an engine. So much was rudimentary, nascent aeronautical engineering, and pure educated guessing. Fires were common, as were blackouts and freezing. And no parachutes, at least for our side. Absolutely scares me stiff.

It's a shame WWI aviation has all but disappeared from historical accounts on the market as these aerial warriors really had some guts and were creating the basic tactics of the job.

My great grandfather (on my mother’s side of my family) was a tail gunner in a German reconnaissance plane in WWI. Unfortunately we don’t know much about him; it’s a shame that so much verbal history and personal recollections is being lost every day with the passing of our elderly veterans.

 

[Seb Lucas]

There are about four guys in the photo above who would be told by some that their jacket is a size or two too large and to return it. Certainly makes me question my own sizing notions. I'm so confused!

Notice the guy second from right in front who may be wearing a half-belt (zip pocket, American cuffs).

They are long too - the rise of the pants can be ignored given that the jackets end about 3 inches from the base of the guy's crotch.

 

[Big J]

So, we have one picture of one bomber crew. It may or may not be typically representative, but it is a real picture of a real bomber crew.
Since the guys in the front row are all kneeling, it's impossible to comment on the fit of their jackets.
Of the guys in the back row, only the guy on the far right has a jacket that doesn't slope off his shoulders, doesn't have a fistful of excess leather around the waist and chest, and doesn't reach all the way down the fly of his pants.
So...
We are left with only 2 possibilities;
1. The guy on the right has been issued a jacket with a tagged size that corresponds to his measured chest, and the others are wearing jackets a size or two bigger than their chests. Or,
2. All of the other guys are wearing jackets that correspond to their measured chest size (and every repro maker is getting it wrong and making their jackets too small), and the guy on the right has been issued a jacket that is smaller than his measured chest size. What are the chances of that? If your size is out of stock, they'd give you the next available larger size, not a smaller one.
Do we know if the USAAF contracted a disproportionately higher amount of larger sizes, thus explaining why so many guys were issued jackets like this?

 

[Mark Ricketts]

Talking to many ex Falklands era Navy lads the military has exactly 2 sizes. Too big and too small!

 

[CBI]

the goat SMW jacket is 2 oz hide so pretty lightweight. I do think thicknesses of leather were all over the nap as well. I have owned some pretty "heavy" original A-2's over the years. I have two original Aeros right now, one very lightweight, one rather thick/heavy.

 

[Big J]

CBI, that's at least the second time in about a week you've said that you were done and through with this thread, and then come straight back! That's pretty funny.

 

[Flightengineer]

J, I'm reasonably certain your friend is more exhausted with people who can not afford one of his planes wasting his valuable time talking to him about their hobby. The basics of flying are relativity simple. If you have average coordination you can fly a plane. It does not however require super human skills to fly any plane. This includes WW2 fighters. What makes pilots able to advance to more complex airplanes is training and practice. What makes good to great pilots is judgement. How judgement is gained is up to each individual. I've known pilots who have terrific stick and rudder skills, that I envied, die an untimely dead in an aircraft because of a judgement error. Do I now think, at my age , I could be trained to fly solo in a spitfire? Certainly not, as my basic skill set has diminished due to age. Do I believe I could have been trained to fly fighters when I was younger? No question. Flying is a worthwhile endeavor to pursue at just about any age. Besides it is fun as hell.

Absolutely agree.
However, I want to say...
One day my friend took me to fly on his Yak-11 for aerobatics. This plane is the same bird as WW2 fighters. He was once an instructor in the aerobatic team. Despite all my training and flight expirience, I was wet as a mouse after landing. It was very easy to imagine what the guys felt when flying during WW2, experiencing overload and most importantly still need to shoot and not let yourself be shot down or keep control when the aircraft was damaged...I flew a lot on small civil planes before, but that's quite another. And of course it's not the same thing my job on a big modern planes - we work in paradise.
All these pilots was heroes.
I think that this generation of WW2 pilots was not worry about the styles and fit of they jackets, they every day did an awfully hard job and risked their lives.

 

[bn1966]

Waiting on an ELC Monarch A-2 in HH, nice & light I hope..getting a G-1 for when I need more weight

Might wear the A-2 on a Jumbo flight to Spain with the Wife, full of Diazepam & Gin (due to my fear of heights & flying).

 

[Flightengineer]

Jumbo is very safe you risk on the way to the airport much more than in flight

 

[HPA Rep]

the goat SMW jacket is 2 oz hide so pretty lightweight. I do think thicknesses of leather were all over the nap as well. I have owned some pretty "heavy" original A-2's over the years. I have two original Aeros right now, one very lightweight, one rather thick/heavy.

CBI, I am not really talking about the thicknesses, though this can be a bone of contention with repro makers; rather it's the total jacket weight. It can, I think, have something to due with tanning methods available today, at least where the thickness seems pretty close to vintage but the weight is notably in excess. Please note that the hide thickness wasn't specified, just the hide weight in ounces/foot, so you could, in theory, have thicker hides that had the same weight as a thinner example. It may sound counterintuitive, but it could play out.

Vintage A-2's of the same approximate measures and with all elements being roughy equal, just aren't 3 1/2 lbs. Even 3 lbs is often hard to find! For me, usually a size 40 in vintage, seeing the majority weigh a few ounces under 3 lbs. is most typical. These were really nothing more than leather windbreakers, hence the designation Summer Flying Jacket, intended to keep water, gasoline, and oil from penetrating and soiling the under clothing and wind out, with some inherent degree of durability. Sweaters, sheepskin, and heated clothing (available in the 1930's) were for warmth.

 

[nick123]

Does SM Wholesale have a store front in Newport Beach? I’d like to check it out.

 

[Flightengineer]

CBI, I am not really talking about the thicknesses, though this can be a bone of contention with repro makers; rather it's the total jacket weight. It can, I think, have something to due with tanning methods available today, at least where the thickness seems pretty close to vintage but the weight is notably in excess. Please note that the hide thickness wasn't specified, just the hide weight in ounces/foot, so you could, in theory, have thicker hides that had the same weight as a thinner example. It may sound counterintuitive, but it could play out.

Vintage A-2's of the same approximate measures and with all elements being roughy equal, just aren't 3 1/2 lbs. Even 3 lbs is often hard to find! For me, usually a size 40 in vintage, seeing the majority weigh a few ounces under 3 lbs. is most typical. These were really nothing more than leather windbreakers, hence the designation Summer Flying Jacket, intended to keep water, gasoline, and oil from penetrating and soiling the under clothing and wind out, with some inherent degree of durability. Sweaters, sheepskin, and heated clothing (available in the 1930's) were for warmth.

Sorry for the offtopic here, but I want advantage of the opportunity and ask about it.
Charles, given what you said, how do you assess in terms of the authenticity of the weight A2 Eastman Star Sportswear?

 

[HPA Rep]

Yes, pilots must remain calm in the face of adversity or they won't be around to face adversity again.

In the movies the pilots are often portrayed as yelling into the microphone. That just makes my skin crawl. I have never heard a pilot raise his voice while talking on the radio. Even those who are about to die don't shout. They are too busy figuring the next step so as to avoid death. I heard third hand once about a pilot friend of mine from flight school not staying calm, but he had good reason. Anti-aircraft fire had shot off his rotor blades, and he was falling like a rock. There wasn't much way out of that one, so might as well scream a bit on the way down. RIP Frank Murrietta.

That is a very sad, sobering story. I often think of airmen falling several minutes to their eventual end fully conscious and unable to do anything about it. Worse off yet are those burning on the way down. God bless these brave men who dare. It takes guts and courage and selflessness.