Montecristi Hat Weavers' Earnings

[Drdan]

A FL member recently posted that he would be travelling to Cuenca, Ecuador and while there planned to pick up a nice Panama. If someone was going to be in Ecuador, did some research, was well informed about Panamas, and spoke Spanish, that would be the place to get a good one... There's very little information about what the weavers are paid for hats, especially the better quality ones. I was, and still am curious as to what the weavers receive.

I found an article writen by Brent Black entitled, "The Panama Hat: Myths & Legends," found in 'Inside Ecuador, Complete Guide to Ecuador Travel & Relocation.' The author clears up eight common misconceptions about Montecristis, and gives some information about the renumeration for his best weavers. In his words, "My policy is to pay above market prices, directly to the weavers, in cash. When one of the very finest sells for the kind of price journalists like to report, the artists who created that hat receive 40%. They think I’m the smartest buyer in history. My competitors think I’m an idiot."

http://gringosabroad.com/ecuador/the-panama-hat-myths-legends/

Mr. Black speaks about having had sold several $25,000 hats, mentioning having had sold one to Charlie Sheen. Lots of magazine articles mention $10,000, $15,000, and even $25,000 + Montecristi Panamas. Are the weavers of these super fine tightly woven masterpieces typically given 40% of the sold retail price as intimated, or is this yet another myth or legend?

For the inexpensive hats, those selling for less than a few hundred dollars, it seems that middlemen get them for as cheaply as possible, and then mark them up considerably for clients outside of Ecuador. Maybe even hats with 1,200 wpsi or higher are purchased cheaply from the weavers; I don't know. One website offers "museum quality" Montecristis for less than $600, and claims that only about 20 are produced each year by the handful of master weavers capable of producing them. I doubt if his master weavers are given 40% of the sales receipts.

I'd appreciate it if anyone had some insider information on the reality of the weavers' earnings. Seems like most of them are not fairly paid for the beautiful hats they are producing.

Thanks!

 

[Nyah]

I don't trust what end-sellers or middlemen say, regarding what they pay for the hats. Of course they aren't going to say what their real profit margin is. A labor rights organization is reporting that $2.USD is a typical price paid by middlemen. I don't know which grade of panama that this would apply to but, I've never seen anglos selling them, of any grade, for less than about $40.

 

[tropicalbob]

I thought the NPR piece was, typically, trying to have it both ways: on the one hand it sympathized with the workers (briefly) and then on the other went on to speak of the fabulous amount of money the hat would fetch. For this kind of information, I'd probably trust someone like Panama Bob or Tom Gomez, both of whom know their business and are decent men as well.

 

[-30-]

"When one of the very finest sells for the kind of price journalists like to report, the artists who created that hat receive 40%."
Brent Black.

. . . and if the "price journalists like to report" isn't reported . . .

Just asking.


Regards,
J T

 

[Bob Roberts]

When a artist paints a potential "masterpiece" what does artist recieve...?

 

[randooch]

Perhaps PabloElFlamenco, with his fluent Spanish, can get more information on this topic during his upcoming trip.

 

[foamy]

I have no reason to doubt Brent Black's claims. I'm also sure that he speaks only for himself. That he has ferreted out the best weavers and has them sell their best product to him makes perfect sense, as he will pay them a fair price (perhaps more than fair) to keep them weaving and earn a good living for their efforts and talent. If that is not motivation, then I don't know what is. It's very altruistic and it seems like a sound business practice to me, particularly if you are, or aspire to be, a/the purveyor of the finest examples of the craft.

When I see photos of high-end Panamas sold by reputable hat companies, I can't help but compare them to BB's offerings and what I've seen of them—and (imo) there is no comparison—not for the money. I believe he does get the cream of the crop.

As for larger companies that buy bodies for mass production, typical buying strategies would have to rule; what's the best quality that can be had in the quantities needed at the best price. I think you'd have to have some consistancy there and the weave count goes down. What those prices might be, I have no idea. I'm guessing that they get a large mark-up by the time they hit retail.

 

[foamy]

When a artist paints a potential "masterpiece" what does artist receive...?

Bob, it's what the perceived value is. Mostly, it's about who the artist is. A Banksy, stenciled, piece of art can go for five figures. Why? Because it's Banksy. He doesn't do a thing for me, but a piece of his art is a grail for some folks, I don't know why—it's all about what you want it for—as an investment or because it moves/appeals to you. For me, it's most certainly the latter. I've learned that if I run across something that really works on me (very rare)—I'll buy it if it's within my means—there'll be no second chance.

Typically, if a gallery sells a work, the artist gets half, however, pricing and selling art is quite complicated—there are so many factors and variables involved. As you know, excellent hat makers with a stellar reputation and product can and do command higher prices for their work. It's all much of a muchness and much of it is perception.

 

[Bob Roberts]

Bob, it's what the perceived value is. Mostly, it's about who the artist is. A Banksy, stenciled, piece of art can go for five figures. Why? Because it's Banksy. He doesn't do a thing for me, but a piece of his art is a grail for some folks, I don't know why—it's all about what you want it for—as an investment or because it moves/appeals to you. For me, it's most certainly the latter. I've learned that if I run across something that really works on me (very rare)—I'll buy it if it's within my means—there'll be no second chance.

Typically, if a gallery sells a work, the artist gets half, however, pricing and selling art is quite complicated—there are so many factors and variables involved. As you know, excellent hat makers with a stellar reputation and product can and do command higher prices for their work. It's all much of a muchness and much of it is perception.

Right. Its really worth just as much as the buyer will pay. Whether the buyer is a dealer like Brent Black or a collector... and maybe the artist that created the hat should raise his price...? Its really all between the creator and the buyer...

 

[Lean'n'mean]

When a artist paints a potential "masterpiece" what does artist recieve...?

No artist paints a masterpiece. An artist paints a picture & then it's down to art critics to decide if it's a masterpiece & then up to art dealers to estimate it's price. The rest is just a question of persuading everyone else that they are right. What does an artist get ? all depends if he/she has had the luck to cross the path of an influential member of the art world, in which case they may recieve thousands or even millions of dollars for a piece of work depending on their reputation. A run of the mill artist can expect to earn between $200 & $1500 for an average sized oil painting, & then one day prehaps, when the artist has kicked the bucket, someone in the know will see one of their paintings & declare it a masterpiece !

 

[Bob Roberts]

No artist paints a masterpiece. An artist paints a picture & then it's down to art critics to decide if it's a masterpiece & then up to art dealers to estimate it's price. The rest is just a question of persuading everyone else that they are right. What does an artist get ? all depends if he/she has had the luck to cross the path of an influential member of the art world, in which case they may recieve thousands or even millions of dollars for a piece of work depending on their reputation. A run of the mill artist can expect to earn between $200 & $1500 for an average sized oil painting, & then one day prehaps, when the artist has kicked the bucket, someone in the know will see one of their paintings & declare it a masterpiece !

"Potential masterpiece." Lol.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

 

[LeBois46]

BBB also reports that he provides other services to the weavers and their families ie medical and dental clinics. Is there any independent verification of that? My nicest Panama Montecristi comes from BBB and I would like to believe him. It didn't take six months to a year to get it either.

 

[foamy]

snip... My nicest Panama Montecristi comes from BBB...

Sure would like to see a photo of it if it's possible, or you're inclined. Perhaps in the Panama thread?

 

[Drdan]

Any input on the weavers' earnings?

From what I've gleaned from the Fedora Lounge, super high wpsi Montecristis are very rare, and very few weavers are capable of making them. There are many weavers capable of weaving a 1,200 wpsi and higher hat, and even more capable of weaving a 900 weave hat. The best ones would have uniform color, a tight weave, very even rows, no broken strands, fewer imperfections, a round and regular brim, and minimal or no twists, knots or otherwise errant weaves.

If 10 Montecrisits all woven by different weavers and all approximately 900 wpsi had a zoomed detail of the weave shown in a photo with a measuring tape, and all had the most desireable parameters mentioned above, you'd see a high quality 900 wpsi Montecrisisti, and it's unlikely you'd know who wove and finished the hat body. If these same hat bodies were professionally blocked in the U.S., with high quality roan sheepskin sweatbands, vintage or high quality ribbons, and meticulous stitching, you'd most likely be incapable of differentiating who sold the hat unless you looked at the information on the sweatband.

I'm wondering if each of these weavers if getting more or less the same payment for these top of the line 900 wpsi hat bodies. Is there some sort of written or unwritten pay scale for different grades of hats, or is the payment system arbitrary and archaic? I understand that there are a few individuals capable of weaving higher wpsi hats than anyone else, and they are paid higher rates than lesser master weavers.

 

[PabloElFlamenco]

From the many articles regarding toquilla hats on this forum, I distinctly get the impression that payment for weaving hat bodies is a generally archaic affair. When I read BB tends to prefer cash money, and when PB didn't get ordered hat bodies delivered because they were prematurely sold for cash, that screams out fluid market morality. Or am I wrong? When one "dealer" (I call them that) sells an admittedly perfect hat for money approaching 25 grand, he obviously has margin to play around with. Which doesn't mean the chain of workers, prominently the weaver, get a fair share of it. Fluid dynamics seem to rule...

I don't honestly think I can just go down there and expect to buy a "perfect" hat for $650 when an even more perfect hat goes for $25000. I prefer to stay out of these murky waters. At best, I can hope I find a hat I like at a relatively modest price. I've read that the women in Sigsig (near Cuenca) claim they can weave as well as any one (which I doubt) and that they started their cooperative in order to cut out the middle-men. I'll go there and see if I like what they make.

But no matter how well I speak Spanish, and with what I already know about toquilla hats -which is way more than average- none of this will help me to dig out the facts in the complexities of the toquilla.

 

[Daniele Tanto]

Pablo I agree 100%
The equadorian straw hats is a very complex and hazadous situation.
Since EU is no longer a producer of straw hats and "panama " is the only way to have somenthing of decent in straw the market became a war. The equadorian producers are mostly the victims of a economical situation over their heads,
I think that super Panamas, as most of the time, "they are most an illusion" to gain the allure in the West market at detriment of the weavers.

 

[Drdan]

But no matter how well I speak Spanish, and with what I already know about toquilla hats -which is way more than average- none of this will help me to dig out the facts in the complexities of the toquilla.

With your Spanish communication skills and knowledge of Panama hats, you'll be able to get an incredible hat for $650.00. After blocking it, the hat will be a work of art. No idea what wpsi count $650.00 will get you in Ecuador, but certainly above 900. You might not want to go too much above 900 anyway, as the hat it a bit too floppy in the wind. I very much look forward to hearting about your trip, and seeing how nice a hat you're able to score!

 

[PabloElFlamenco]

íYa veremos! The $650 I mentioned are what the Ecuatoriano websites seem to take as a standard for the so-called best quality Montecristi hats. Since I'm not going to Montecristi, my budget dictates less, say $250 or so (ten thousand of our old francs ).

I don't aim for the most refined "European" Borsalino type blocking, the style most to my liking that I've seen is more "gambler" or "plantation" or even something like this http://www.bespoketraveller.net/bes..._OF_The_Perfect_Panama_files/shapeimage_2.png

It all depends on the quality of the work...of course, naturalmente...a compromise...a hat I really like...and that will not be a $25000 hat, however fantastic these hats can be, and are!

First, we need to get ourselves to february 2016 in one peace (pun intended). Given the altitudes over there, I need to get some serious walking practice. And hope the volcanoes don't blow and the Prez doesn't take too much advantage of exceptional powers...

 

[Drdan]

With $300, your speaking Spanish well, being well versed in Panamas, and knowing what questions to ask, you will definitely find an excellent high quality and high wpsi hat. I've seen websites offering 900 wpsi hats for about $600 myself... You would be able to get an amazing hat for that much in Ecuador. I have no idea what the wpsi would be, but I would not be surprised if it was 1,600 or higher.

I like the style of the hats in your photo link very much. I myself prefer Panamas with a thin ribbon as in the photo. I'm sure you can find a well respected blocker that can do a really good job there. You can even bring the sweatband of your choice and some nice ribbon options with you. You have so much time before you go that you can collect the accessories if you wanted to do so.

What a wonderful experience it will be making a well informed purchase and getting a really superb Panama. I hope you can make a few contacts before you go so you can have even more information as to where to go and who to talk to.

Wear running shoes at all times while there, just in case of any unespected volcanic activity!

 

[alanfgag]

I have no idea what the wpsi would be, but I would not be surprised if it was 1,600 or higher.

Hats of this fine a weave are exceedingly few and far between. I own quite a few good vintage panama hats but none are this fine. I have handled a number of hats at Optimo in Chicago in the 2K to 5K price range - I do not believe any were woven with 40x40 crossings per inch.

While I love finely woven straw hats I find my expectation of them to be much like white wine... refreshing but not something to spend a lot of money on. Straw hats receive abuse from handling and hot weather perspiration such that they should be expected to be consumed in the wearing. A very expensive straw would inhibit my enjoyment of warm weather hat wearing which has helped restrain me from purchasing one... a good thing as restraint is not one of my better qualities.