*Many Pics* Original 1938-39 Royal airforce Jacket and pants

[GriffDeLaGriff]

My grandfather got these as he was in a fighter plane during the war.
The jacket is as you can see well worn and used in the war and the zippers are
destroyed, the belt is in bad condition and there is a patch in the upper back
(under the collar)

The pants are in great condition, they look unworn, or worn very few times.
The zippers doesnt work right tho.

Is it worth any money? How much?
Should I repair the jacket at Aero?

 

[GriffDeLaGriff]

 

[cookie]

They are wonderful but they would like a nice drink of antique leather conditioner after so many years "on the wagon"! lol

 

[aswatland]

Thanks for posting these pics of the Irvin jacket and trousers. The trousers were made by Wareing and Co in 1941-the number 539778 is the Air ministry contract number and was issued in 1941. The trousers appear to be in particularly good condition.

The jacket dates from 1941-2 and is the typical mid-War 4 panel construction. The rounded collar is a characteristic of Links-a most prolific maker of Irvins. Yes it could be restored and Aero Leather would be a good bet.

As far as values are concerned the trousers would sell for around £200 on Ebay and once restored the jacket should sell for £400 depending on its size. At present it may fetch £200.

 

[GriffDeLaGriff]

Thanks for the information.

Are you really sure that the jacket isnt earlier?

The trousers are probably something he got as a replacement and therefore never worn in batle.

I had thought that a jacket actually worn by a fighter pilot should be
worth more then a normal copy on ebay. This is why I asked because one never knows. Thanks again.

 

[aswatland]

Thanks for the information.

Are you really sure that the jacket isnt earlier?

The trousers are probably something he got as a replacement and therefore never worn in batle.

I had thought that a jacket actually worn by a fighter pilot should be
worth more then a normal copy on ebay. This is why I asked because one never knows. Thanks again.

The jacket is almost certainly Links 539777 contract which is from 1941. Almost all pre-1941 jackets were two panel construction. Certainly provenance is important and with documentary evidence that this jacket was worn by a fighter pilot will increase its value, but by how much depends on who is bidding, when its listed etc..

BTW Irvin trousers were usually only issued to members of a bomber crew not to fighter pilots.


This all should be part of the original Irvin thread, which you might like to consult for more information.
Paddy please can you move it.

 

[GriffDeLaGriff]

Yes he was in a langcaster wellington and he was Captain/Navigator.
I didnt know they werent called fighter pilots so sorry for that mistake.

As I said in an earlier thread we had his uniform, maps and survival kits and stuff but they are unfortunately lost.
The uniform was eaten badly by moth so it was thrown away by granny.

His name should be in some sort of lists?


It makes sense. He was taken captive and came from concentrationcamps in russia (i think) to England and rebuild his squadron and that is certainly when he got these clothes. He had time to meet my grandmother there. They then were stationed in Scottland and granny were there also, and she had my dad, they returned and lived in England afterwards, so my dad is Scottish hehe.

Without the war i wouldnt be alive

 

[aswatland]

This makes sense as Irvin suits were routinely issued to bomber crew. Fighter pilots wore Irvin jackets but more often on the ground in the winter than in the rather restricted cockpits!

If he came to England in 1941-2 the jacket and trousers would have been isued to him then by the RAF stores. Certainly your information about this will appeal to collectors and increase the value of the jacket and trousers. If you can find out which bomber squadron he flew in all the better. Good luck.

 

[GriffDeLaGriff]

Sorry I had to edit the post many times because I thought he was a tailgunner but called dad just now and he said he was the captain/navigator and told me a little more. I remembered it all wrong, but we havent talked about this since I was a kid so...

 

[GriffDeLaGriff]

Yes I will try and see what information I can dig up and what else dad knows. Grandfather was Polish and his last name was Gorzkowski.

 

[Papa M]

I had thought that a jacket actually worn by a fighter pilot should be
worth more then a normal copy on ebay. This is why I asked because one never knows. Thanks again.

I find it slightly sad that originals are worth less than the repros. I appreciate that the repros are generally much finer quality than the originals.
Is it also perhaps a sad war statistic that there were so many originals issued to so many members of the forces?

 

[aswatland]

I find it slightly sad that originals are worth less than the repros. I appreciate that the repros are generally much finer quality than the originals.
Is it also perhaps a sad war statistic that there were so many originals issued to so many members of the forces?

Many originals in good condition will sell for more than high end repros.

Why is it a sad statistic that there were so many originals (they could not be repros in the War!!) issued to so many members of the forces?

 

[Papa M]

Why is it a sad statistic that there were so many originals (they could not be repros in the War!!) issued to so many members of the forces?

Sad that so many had to fight in a war - many of whom failed to return.

 

[aswatland]

Sad that so many had to fight in a war - many of whom failed to return.

Now I understand what you mean. Yes it is sad that so many did not survive the War.

 

[Peacoat]

Fascinating discussion. I wondered how long it would take for Andrew to jump in with the definitive answer. And I understood perfectly Papa's comment. I read it to mean that it was sad that so many Irvins were issued and so many failed to make it back across the Channel.

As to the comment about the Lancaster-Wellington, I believe Griff is combining two different aircraft. From my aviation days, I believe the Wellington was a twin engine, medium bomber produced/placed in service in the 1930s. In 1941 The Lancaster, made by Avro?, was produced and placed in service in about 1942 as a night bomber. It also saw considerable service as a day bomber. The Lancaster was a heavy four engine bomber used by the RAF. As Papa noted, too many of the original Irvins (and the crew who wore them) were lost in these fine aircraft.

Perhaps Griff's Grandfather started out in the Wellingtons and later transitioned to the Lancasters? That would be consistent with his posts and what he knows about his Grandfather's service.

 

[aswatland]

Yes the Avro Lancaster entered service in 1942 and many who had previously served on the two-engined Wellington bomber converted to the Lanc. If Griff's grandfather had served on the Wellington early in the war he would not have worn the jacket and trousers pictured above, but if he had done so in England from 1941 he most likely would have done so. I'm sure there's more out there to learn about this man's service career.

 

[GriffDeLaGriff]

I did not know it was 2 different airplanes, but it fits the story.

He was polish and was a navigator/captain early in the war, then he was taken captive and dad says he was in a russian concentration-camp wich I dont know if its accurate or not but he was taken captive, at this point his polish clothes were surely taken/lost. He then came to England (I dont know how he got free) and rebuilt his/a squadron and continued as a navigator/captain. This is most likely where he got the clothes we now have and also where he got the rest of his stuff that are sadly lost (day uniform/maps/survivalkits/etc)

 

[GriffDeLaGriff]

I can see if dad knows what squadron but I have little hope that he knows. I think it should be easier to find the name in some archive since the name also have a long history in Poland.

(I know all names have royalty and crests if you go back long enough)


We were once snowed in badly some years ago and the jacket and trousers came handy. You dont freeze in this stuff
I have also sent a mail to Aero about a repair to the jacket.
I think the coolest thing would be to restore it and use it. It will probably last for a long time.

 

[aswatland]

You might find this website useful on Polish RAF squadrons stationed in Scotland.

http://www.ostrycharz.free-online.co.uk/PolishAirForce.html

304 squadron (Coastal Command) used specially equipped Wellingtons to patrol the Atlantic waters.

 

[dr greg]

walkout

Without claiming any expert knowledge beyond what I've been told by actual veterans, I believe that once Hitler started Op Barbarossa, the Russians very quickly realised that it was all hands required and the Polish prisoners who had been forced to surrender to them in 1939 might be useful again, and those who hadn't been ruthlessly shot earlier on were released from the various camps they'd been sent to and some were able to make their way to England to fight with the Polish Units that had already been set up for the men who'd managed to escape from the German theatre of operations at the start of proceedings.