Limits of blocking

[Fletch]

We know blocking can correct shrinkage taper in felt hats. But can a hat with built-in taper be blocked out to a fuller crown shape? What are the limits?

I've heard also of wide-brimmed hats being reblocked with added crown height coming out of the inner circumference of the brim.

How are the results on either technique? Anyone had it done?

 

[Woodfluter]

And on a related subject...

I really don't want to hijack this thread or create distraction from the original question, but it seems too related to warrant a fresh start.

With regard to the limits Fletch mentions, how on earth do they do crowns that flare outwards at the top? As in some top hats, or the lower-brimmed semi- "John Bull" type western hat that Clint Eastwood wore in "Pale Rider"? I've always admired that latter look, but couldn't see how you'd get it off a flared block!

But do address Fletch's query first...I'm thinking there might be one answer to both.

- Bill

 

[fletch31]

I don't know how they made that particular Eastwood hat but I know there are 3 and 5 piece blocks that dissemble a piece at a time to remove the freshly dried and blocked body. I have seen them in women's hat molds primarily because they tend to have more creative flares and curves that don't allow one to remove the felt by using a slip stick. I would think that you could do the same for top hats and that flared top Pale Rider hat.

 

[majormoore]

When the top of the hat is wider than the brim break on a hat a 5 piece block is used, you have to pull the center piece out then pull the other 4 parts out, that way you have the flare at the top.

Those blocks are hard to find, I would like to have a few of these, if you
happen to find one send me a e-mail, there is a $25.00 reward if you help me find one I can afford and need.

Major Moore

 

[tonyb]

We know blocking can correct shrinkage taper in felt hats. But can a hat with built-in taper be blocked out to a fuller crown shape? What are the limits?

I've heard also of wide-brimmed hats being reblocked with added crown height coming out of the inner circumference of the brim.

How are the results on either technique? Anyone had it done?

I, rank amateur that I am, have added crown height by taking out some brim width on a couple of old hats. Made their crowns considerable more straight-sided in the process, too.

You need the proper block, of course, and brim flange. And a band block also comes in handy. And you have to strip the hat of the liner, sweatband and ribbon and not be afraid to sew 'em back on again, or replace them with new pieces.

Stretch the body over the block (after cleaning it, by your preferred method), pulling the crown farther down onto the block than its original brim-break line. Tie it off at the new break line with a cord and leave it all there for, oh, I dunno, at least a few hours, I would think prudent, if not overnight. (Although, truth be told, my notions of the proper length of time on the block are pure conjecture. Perhaps someone with more experience will weigh in on this.)

The brim will likely be quite wavy and fears of it never being right again would not seem unfounded. But they are. The band block makes it easier to get a nice, sharp new break line, and the flange (and an iron) gets the brim back into shape again. Do not iron directly on the brim, but rather cover it with a clean, white old towel (a bed sheet would probably work as well, I suppose) secured to the flange with a cord in that groove that runs along the flange's outside circumference. A sandbag would make the job all the easier, but I've yet to find (or make) such an item, so it's an iron and elbow grease for now.

It turns out that felt is quite sculptable (to coin a term). With the help of heat, moisture and pressure, it can be massaged into a new form without putting up too much of a fight.

 

[Tango Yankee]

From Scientific Hat Finishing and Renovating: "If the shape is to be altered from a tapering or alpine effect to a fuller crown, such as the Dakota, the hat after steaming should be worked down over the block with the palm of the right hand until the tip of the crown is perfectly flat on the block. Then a little pull with the puller-down will remove all the wrinkles, but work mostly with your palms and sparingly with the puller-down. Such hats may need to be steamed two or three times."

So, yes, it would seem that hats with built-in taper can be changed via blocking.

Cheers,
Tom

 

[Fletch]

This is good news.

I actually have a hat that could use this treatment, but it's a very nice Borsalino and I'm loathe to experiment on it myself. Still it's nice to know it can be done by a "rank amateur."

 

[Rick Blaine]

...The band block makes it easier to get a nice, sharp new break line...

Thanks Tony, good info!
What does one of these looks like? Do you have any photos?
Do I need to buy a copy of Scientific Hatmaking already? [huh]

 

[tonyb]

A band block is a chunk of wood in the same oval shape as the base of a corresponding crown block, but only an inch and a quarter or so tall. I got mine as part of a three-piece set, along with the crown block and brim flange.

The band block is for use with what Henry L. Ermatinger (the author of "Scientific Hat Finishing and Renovating") calls a "bottom board." This is also where foot tollikers come in handy, but you can fake it with other stuff the average person likely has somewhere in the kitchen, the laundry room or the garage.

And yes, Rick, for the vintage hat fancier, the book is easily worth its price. Even for those who never attempt their own hat renovating, it's good to have some idea of what all is involved. And while some of it is clearly antiquated (it's a direct facsimile of a volume published in 1919, after all), there's more than a bit of practical information therein. Hats haven't changed all that much in the intervening 89 years. And it's something of a window into the technology and social mores of its times. Ermatinger doesn't assume that the enterprising hat renovator has a telephone in his shop, for instance, or even electricity. And his injunction against drink is a hoot.

 

[Stoney]

I'm not a hatter either , but can agree with everything tonyb has said.
I've refurbished a few hats and made three from new hat bodies and would say that the only limitations are the amount of material available, the style of blocks and flanges that you own and your imagination.

 

[Tango Yankee]

A band block is a chunk of wood in the same oval shape as the base of a corresponding crown block, but only an inch and a quarter or so tall. I got mine as part of a three-piece set, along with the crown block and brim flange.

I've got what appears to be a metal version of a band block. It's an oval-shaped adjustable metal hoop. If I recall correctly I believe I saw Art using one in his shop.

Cheers,
Tom

 

[fletch31]

A while ago I also read about a particular hatter using an adjustable metal band to help with the blocking process, in getting a good brim break. The band is slid over the felt while on the crown block and tightened right at the brim transition.

 

[tonyb]

If you ever come across a source for such a gizmo, f31, lemme know about it, OK?

 

[Tango Yankee]

A while ago I also read about a particular hatter using an adjustable metal band to help with the blocking process, in getting a good brim break. The band is slid over the felt while on the crown block and tightened right at the brim transition.

IIRC, you're talking about a guy using a large hose clamp instead of a cord to tie the body to the block as is traditionally done. Mine fits inside the crown--the wing nut used to secure the hoop at the size needed is inside the hoop.

I suppose a photo is worth a thousand words... I need to photograph this and my other tools for the hatters tools thread.

Cheers,
Tom

 

[Fletch]

A while ago I also read about a particular hatter using an adjustable metal band to help with the blocking process, in getting a good brim break. The band is slid over the felt while on the crown block and tightened right at the brim transition.

The extent to which this trade developed its tools, all in the service of better handwork, is breathtaking. Even more amazing is how thoroughly they've all disappeared.

BTW, fletch31, are we related? Possibly thru Igor Stravinsky? Or Dr. Rosen-Rosen?

 

[Tango Yankee]

The extent to which this trade developed its tools, all in the service of better handwork, is breathtaking. Even more amazing is how thoroughly they've all disappeared.

Fletch,

You're right, it is astonishing how wooden blocks, flanges, and the like keep surfacing in the bay yet the metal hand tools are rare as hen's teeth. Your comment got me to wondering whether or not the metal tools wound up being recycled? For example, since we've seen articles going back decades bemoaning the decline of hat wearing I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of unused metal tools found their way into the metal recycling drives of WWII and, of course, during the years since. I'd hazard a guess that since the advent of the Internet and ebay are fairly recent those heavy hunks of metal were deemed worth more as recycling fodder than curios to sell in the past.

Then, too, some are rather odd-looking bits so if you didn't happen to have a hatter around to tell you what it was and what it was used for other than a door stop there'd be no reason to keep them. Off to the recycler!

Just a WAG, of course!

Cheers,
Tom

 

[fletch31]

Yeah I am talking about something different but principally would be the same , just using the tightening action of the band rather than the expanding function of it and switching the tightening mechanism to the outside from the inside. It is similar to a hose clamp but the inside has a solid overlapping metal band liner so those slits don't mark the felt in an unsightly way. Should be easy enough to make I would think. Thats kind of the cool thing about this hatting stuff. In some ways there is no replacing hatting materials like vintage profiled blocks and such but I think a lot of things can be recreated and be just as good or better than the originals when it comes to the hand tools and techniques. This band could have some advantage to its use over a hatters cord alone. The cord leaves an unsightly indentation on the felt during the blocking process that has to be lessened with a little work. It is largely covered by the hat band in the end and some hatters don't worry about it. I could see how a wider band would spread out the tightening forces and make less of an indentation but if I recall correctly, in his description, this person just tightened it to set an even, sharp brim break. He still described using a hatters cord in his dialog so I am a little unclear. The person who made the description is the unspoken name here on the forum and I will leave it to any interested party to hunt it down on his forum. It just seemed like an interesting use and I thought it would be beneficial to try out. I stopped visiting him there when he started bashing Art in an unfair and insanely vitriolic way. There was some knowledge to be gained there, I just had to slog through too much craziness to get to it.

 

[Art Fawcett]

TY, I've never known the correct term for the tool you are referring to but as you know I own several and use them in two ways. First, I use them to "set" the bandline ( brim break) of the felt initially when going under the sandbag. Of course, I also do that during blocking, but this really sets it.

A band block is something very different and is what I make for my repeat clientele business. All this is , is a wooden block of approx. 1 1/4-1/2" that is shaped exactly to my clients head shape and is placed inside the sweatband, before ribbon installation, then use a tolliker to form the sweat and felt to that shape. I use is again on the final flanging. If the hat is being "difficult" I will leave it in the hat for several days so that the hat gains a "memory".

Gents, whether you use a hose clamp , hatters cord, heck, claw hammer, it's all about getting the results wanted and not about the actual tool. I liken hatting to the "backyard mechanic" syndrome where whatever it takes to get the job done is fine. So much of hatting is figuring the simple things out and practicing with that, it's amazing. The more I talk to hatters, the more I discover different ways to achieve the same thing.

Fletch, in answer to your original question, there really aren't that many limits if you are willing to go all the way and rebuild the entire hat. There IS always the question " Will it be worth the effort?" Only you can be the judge of that. I've done several western conversions to fedoras but in the end, it never fits MY idea of what makes a good fedora ( read that as soft, never gonna happen with a western) so I've never seen it as "worth it" unless there is a sentimental attatchment to the hat.

 

[tonyb]

Gents, whether you use a hose clamp , hatters cord, heck, claw hammer, it's all about getting the results wanted and not about the actual tool. I liken hatting to the "backyard mechanic" syndrome where whatever it takes to get the job done is fine. So much of hatting is figuring the simple things out and practicing with that, it's amazing. The more I talk to hatters, the more I discover different ways to achieve the same thing.

Yeah, that's pretty much the way I see it, too.

Still, isn't it stunning how some will arrogate onto themselves an almost divine authority on these matters? Not to name names, but ...

Contrast that with how forthcoming other hatters (including you, Art) are with their hard-gained knowledge. As it turns out, you don't have to climb a mountain to find some old guy with a beard reaching down to his ankles to acquire the necessary skills. Consider the men of Adventurebilt, Steve Delk and Marc Kitter. Heck, Herr Kitter has a step-by-step tutorial posted over at COW showing most of what a person needs to know to make a hat. Sure, there's about a thousand little tricks and techniques to refine, and learning them is bound to involve a certain amount of wasted time and material and perhaps a bit of cussing, but the basics are quite straightforward.

 

[fletch31]

Yeah, that's pretty much the way I see it, too.

Still, isn't it stunning how some will arrogate onto themselves an almost divine authority on these matters? Not to name names, but ...

I hope you don't mean me Tonyb. For the record, I am no authority on this stuff, I'm just sharing my experiences which I have tried to qualify as limited. I am a hobbyist who is working toward making a hat from scratch. I have only reblocked hats up until now and then according to info I have found on this great forum and others along with visits and private emails to other hatters. I regurgitate what I have learned from others along with my own ideas. They shouldnt be taken for anything more than that. I dont know anyone here who paints themselves as a divine authority on these matters. Even those (not me) that could lay claim to that title are quite humble in their guidance. I think you are off the mark here.