Limited Edition Himel Bros avail. at Orvis?

[Superfluous]

Fact no. 1: Shinki is mid to light weight

Disagree. Shinki is at least mid-weight (for most, Shinki would be considered heavy weight). Nothing "light weight" about Shinki. Have you ever handled a Shinki jacket?

Fact no. 2: More stitch holes does not equal construction quality.

Disagree. Rather than sharing your personal opinions, why not ask jacket manufacturers. I strongly suspect that many/most manufacturers would agree that a higher stitch count is often a component of craftsmanship and higher quality.

Monitor,

Your refusal to acknowledge certain fundamental principles, and (passive) aggressive campaign to prove that Himel is overpriced and inferior (even though you claim otherwise), speaks volumes about your overwhelming and intransigent bias. Moreover, your myopic focus on weight/thickness and "durability," to the exclusion of all other factors, undermines your opinions. There is much more to quality than weight/thickness/durability. I understand that weight/thickness is of paramount importance for a motorcycle rider because the jacket may ultimately be the sole object between skin and asphalt. However, for non-riders, heavy weight leathers are less important, and sometimes even undesirable. I don't need a suit of armor, nor do I want one. All of my current leather jackets are mid-weight, and all are sufficiently durable to last for the rest of my life. Therefore, I am more focused on small details, such as stitching and seam construction. These details may not result in a more durable jacket, but they do reflect a level of craftsmanship that I value and desire, and I am willing to pay more for these details. Why is that so offensive to you?

Please consider broadening your horizons a bit. Open yourself up to differing opinions. I am not making any pejorative statements about your favored brands. Why must you relentlessly criticize the brands that I and others patronize?

 

[HoosierDaddy]

This discussion has really went off the rails... I mean really...and yet it goes on and on.

 

[Monitor]

The cuff on that aero is ugly to me and the himel is beautiful. And that difference is seen throughout the jacket, I mean how the stitching looks is pretty important. It just looks bulky... I like leather jackets for purely aesthetic purposes, not because I'm looking for something durable or practical, so I value the appearance of the construction more than others do. If you want to argue that the aero looks better in that regard... well we just have very different ideas of what looks good!

And if shinki is top grain, does it really matter as long as the hide has character? I mean thats why top grain matters, right? By correcting the leather you lose the natural character of it.

Because if what we care about is the feel of the leather and it's aesthetic qualities, I would take my shinki over fqhh (full grain?) any day of the week.

That's what I'm trying to say! Of course it doesn't matter if Shinki is top, full or corrected grain, only thing that matters is that you like it - but if you start going on how it's the best hide ever in the world, without stating the basis on which you're drawing your conclusion, well I'm sorry but then it's just not true. Holy shit, man, I can rip it apart with my bare hands. I can't rip CXL apart but I can rip Shinki apart. So I could easily go around calling Shinki stupid mall crap on the account on this alone. But I'm not.

You've said it yourself, you like jackets for purely aesthetic purposes and that's awesome. You value the appearance of construction over other aspects, also awesome. Does that automatically make (insert brand here) better than Aero? To you, sure. There's definitely less attention to detail on some (most) Aero jackets than what I've seen on Himel jackets, I'll be the first one to admit that - but would it be fair to say their jackets are simply inferior because they do not cater to your personal preference? Or would it be fair of me to say Aero makes best jacketz in teh werld cuz it weights 100 pounts and I can nail boards together with it? No, it wouldn't because there's no basis for such claims in real world. That's all I'm saying!

 

[Monitor]

Disagree. Shinki is at least mid-weight (for most, Shinki would be considered heavy weight). Nothing "light weight" about Shinki. Have you ever handled a Shinki jacket?

Yes, I have handled the hide. It's certainly a competitive hide but it's really soft, somewhat spongy, stretchy and relatively lighter compared to what many other TFL talked about brands are using. People call CXL shoe/sofa hide and I freaking agree, it's an overkill. Of course most people find it ridiculous. It is! I myself love it but I'm not making a crusade out of it, nor have I once said it's the best hide in the world.

Disagree. Rather than sharing your personal opinions, why not ask jacket manufacturers. I strongly suspect that many/most manufacturers would agree that a higher stitch count is often a component of craftsmanship and higher quality.

I did - but I didn't need to. All the jackets Aero, RMC, Himel, etc. is knocking off have been using less stitches than either of 'em, and considering how long these jackets have survived for these guys to base their gear on... Well, I think that settles the stitch count theory. Again, I'm not saying higher stitch count is worthless. It has its purpose which is mostly aesthetical which even Himel has confirmed if I remember correctly. It looks great, it shows more effort has been put into the making of the jacket, etc. - but if it did account for the quality of the garment, which I translate to durability, there'd be a lot less vintage jackets for our fav brands to make money on.

Please consider broadening your horizons a bit. Open yourself up to differing opinions. I am not making any pejorative statements about your favored brands. Why must you relentlessly criticize the brands that I and others patronize?

But I'm not, man! I really don't see how my posts come off like I'm criticizing Himel and if they do, it's honest to God not my intention. I'm just trying to say that... Well, what I said so many times before! Hell, you know I like Himel! I'd freaking buy it. But I just don't like hearing stuff like (someone's) the best. Same as I don't like hearing stuff that Schott is crap. It's just not true. And I'm voicing my opinion. HD and Sloan have already made fun of me jumping in whenever Schott gets mentioned in a negative context - and they're not even my favorite brand. But so what? If stating what I believe to be the truth makes me wrong, then I'm sorry but we're just talking here. Internet forum. It's what it's for. So yeah, I don't criticize nor crap on Himel. If it appears I am, I'm sorry. I apologize, I really do. I'm only saying that it's not better. Like, better, period. It has its place on the market, moreso than some other brands. . . Like the stupid Gustin jacket. That thing I do criticize because it's unimaginative, it brings literally nothing new to the market and it looks crappy.

And okay, let's switch this around a bit - have you ever handled a Langlitz jacket? What if I told you you'd literally forget about any other brand you liked, if you did? Would you believe me?

 

[Benj]

I definitely see what you mean, Himel (or Flat Head) may be the best for my purposes but Aero for anothers. I think all I'm saying is that, in my opinion, if we are looking at attention to detail, the Himel is objectively better. If we are looking at pure durability, I wouldn't argue that the Aero wasn't better.

I think the problem is that when people are saying Himel is better, it's specifically in regards to attention to detail. This is likely what they're talking about when they say "higher quality", because quality is often synonymous with attention to detail. So if you say that it's not better than an Aero, even specifically in regards to attention to detail, I would have to fundamentally disagree.

I also disagree that this discussion has went off the rails, we're discussing the comparisons between Himel and Aero which has been the topic since page 2.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

I think the big problem is that we aren't clear on what 'better' means.

When I say Himels jackets are superior. I mean in terms of construction, materials, and attention to detail. The problem with this is that everyone seems to think that materials only refers to the leather. I am also talking about the thread, buttons, NOS liners, etc as well as the leather itself.

I think we are all in agreement that in terms of stitching/overall construction, Himel and others are superior to Aero (not to say that Aero isn't great.)

Durability seems to be a large sticking point for many here. I personally see this as kind of silly because if you really want durability, Aero would not even be the best. Vanson probably would. Durability in leather jackets is really only as far as choosing the toughest hide and at least halfway competently stitching it together (no to say thst,Vanson had poor stitching. I have no experience with them and have heard generally positive reviews of them.)

So really, I'm trying to say that Himel, RMC, FW, and FH are superior in terms of OVERALL materials, construction, and attention to detail.

I also disagree that this thread has gone off the rails. We've stayed on a single topic for quite a while which is rare for this thread. People started talking about scooters in my Himel thread ffs

 

[ton312]

What strikes me most about some owners of Himmel and the like is the need to justify. The declaration of superiority over everything else. I don't see this from owners of any other brand, including Lost Worlds, which in my experience may actually have the right to make that claim according to the x,y and z factors we've beaten to death ad nausea across this forum. Being excited about a maker, their product and your purchase is great. Declaring superiority and inferiority is not necessary. It's just bad form.

Let the item speak for itself. A picture of a cuff and it's stitching with a statement like "this shows the extreme level of attention and detail this makers puts into every aspect of construction" is a much better way of conveying your point than a pissing contest between two totally different jackets and makers full of arbitrary characteristics of varying importance to each individual.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

What strikes me most about some owners of Himmel and the like is the need to justify. The declaration of superiority over everything else. I don't see this from owners of any other brand, including Lost Worlds, which in my experience may actually have the right to make that claim according to the x,y and z factors we've beaten to death ad nausea across this forum. Being excited about a maker, their product and your purchase is great. Declaring superiority and inferiority is not necessary. It's just bad form.

Let the item speak for itself. A picture of a cuff and it's stitching with a statement like "this shows the extreme level of attention and detail this makers puts into every aspect of construction" is a much better way of conveying your point than a pissing contest between two totally different jackets and makers full of arbitrary characteristics of varying importance to each individual.

Part of this is due to the fact that people who buy jackets from Himel and the like are looking for the best. I have noticed that the guys (in general) who buy Himel, RMC, FW, etc are guys that are also into raw denim, Japanese made clothing, etc. In general, we try to buy the best of everything. While possible, I doubt you would see a guy wearing a Himel also wearing Gustins. Chances are, he is wearing Ooe Yofuketen, Roy, The Flat Head, or Stevenson jeans. Hecis probably wearing Clinch, Role Club, or Viberg boots not Red Wings.

So in part, I agree with you in that it's a different person that buys each brand.

I don't think it's completely the need to justify. I know that the main the Himel defenders here have been or are currently members of other forums wear we can say "Himel is among the best jackets in the world and better than Aero" and pretty much everyone else will agree. I know this because I have seen this multiple times.

On several other forums, it's a given that Himel and the Japanese makers (and gw) are the best and justification is unecessary. Do we need to justify? Maybe not. However, this is a discussion forum and I did notice that you have not disagreed with any of my last points and instead just tried to essentially insult me instead.

This isn't a pissing contest. We are doing a great job of providing evidence to our points and in fact it's the Himel detractors who have been far more insulting than Ben, Superfluous, and myself. I would say that is in much poorer form.

Also, I notice that something in common I see with many who detract Himel and the like is the need to fe that their jackets are just as good as a Himel (in whatever way they put forth) so as to feel their purchase is worthwhile as well. Not everyone does this of course, but this is the same argument you just made essentially.

I also take issue with you saying that it's not OK for us to assert that our jackets are not better in some way. First of all, it's a discussion forum so some debate is necessary to keep this from being a forum full of yes men (something I believe is necessary).

I don't have much experience with Lost Worlds. Maybe they can make that argument, but I have no data points to discuss their jackets.

 

[ton312]

Part of this is due to the fact that people who buy jackets from Himel and the like are looking for the best. I have noticed that the guys (in general) who buy Himel, RMC, FW, etc are guys that are also into raw denim, Japanese made clothing, etc. In general, we try to buy the best of everything. While possible, I doubt you would see a guy wearing a Himel also wearing Gustins. Chances are, he is wearing Ooe Yofuketen, Roy, The Flat Head, or Stevenson jeans. Hecis probably wearing Clinch, Role Club, or Viberg boots not Red Wings.

So in part, I agree with you in that it's a different person that buys each brand.

I don't think it's completely the need to justify. I know that the main the Himel defenders here have been or are currently members of other forums wear we can say "Himel is among the best jackets in the world and better than Aero" and pretty much everyone else will agree. I know this because I have seen this multiple times.

On several other forums, it's a given that Himel and the Japanese makers (and gw) are the best and justification is unecessary. Do we need to justify? Maybe not. However, this is a discussion forum and I did notice that you have not disagreed with any of my last points and instead just tried to essentially insult me instead.

This isn't a pissing contest. We are doing a great job of providing evidence to our points and in fact it's the Himel detractors who have been far more insulting than Ben, Superfluous, and myself. I would say that is in much poorer form.

Also, I notice that something in common I see with many who detract Himel and the like is the need to fe that their jackets are just as good as a Himel (in whatever way they put forth) so as to feel their purchase is worthwhile as well. Not everyone does this of course, but this is the same argument you just made essentially.

I also take issue with you saying that it's not OK for us to assert that our jackets are not better in some way. First of all, it's a discussion forum so some debate is necessary to keep this from being a forum full of yes men (something I believe is necessary).

I don't have much experience with Lost Worlds. Maybe they can make that argument, but I have no data points to discuss their jackets.

I don't see my post as an insult to you personally dude but you've just made my point perfectly crystal clear.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

I don't see my post as an insult to you personally dude but you've just made my point perfectly crystal clear.

Please elaborate. You haven't responded to any of the points from either of my last 2 posts.

 

[Sloan1874]

If you think of it in terms of a graph on which you plot quality vs cost, then it comes out at as an arc. That is to say there's optimum price/quality point for everyone, and it varies for each individual. Once you pass this point, it becomes a case of diminishing returns, and I have to say that Himel's prices versus what he offers sits that the far end of the arc for me . I speak as someone with a GW on order, who sits just on the right side of my comfort zone - I'm sure I'll still be hurting when I hand over my card details, but I love his work and can see what he does.
Personally, though, I find the use of the term zionist, even as an attempt at humour, in poor taste: it's a word freighted with all sorts of unpleasant meaning and to use it as a stick to beat people to happen to prefer a different maker to your own favourite one is jut uncalled for. If you don't like people's views around here, you don't have to stay, nobody's forcing you to participate.

 

[ton312]

Part of this is due to the fact that people who buy jackets from Himel and the like are looking for the best

After this statement you paint yourself as nothing more than a label whore with precisely the attitude I was describing in the first two sentences of my post. I need not look beyond that.

 

[Benj]

Ton, why did you change the subject from the comparisons of the jackets to speaking poorly about those making them? A bit of a copout, why not respond to the points we raised?

And this quote "a pissing contest between two totally different jackets and makers full of arbitrary characteristics of varying importance to each individual." indicates you think the comparison is impossible to make. On the whole himel and Aero are extremely similar, they're luxury leather jacket manufacturers with an emphasis on vintage style and techniques. And this is in the context of them constantly compared as equals. when people say "I'd rather have two aeros than a himel", it's not the same as "I'd rather have two bananas than a pencil sharpener". Call me crazy for wanting to discuss my opinion in a respectful way.

Sloan, agreed on the curve. I think everyone would agree with that statement!

 

[dudewuttheheck]

After this statement you paint yourself as nothing more than a label whore with precisely the attitude I was describing in the first two sentences of my post. I need not look beyond that.

I struggle how it makes me a label whore just because I prefer certain brands to others. I never said that everything I like is better than what everyone else likes. I was only trying to point out a generalization of who buys what product and of course you use that as in insult to me rather than as a point to discuss.

@Sloan1874 I apologize for that. I would delete that, but I think at this point the damage has been done and the post has already been quoted. I still struggle to see how the treatment I am receiving is fair. You're basically telling me to get out because of the points I am making. I struggle to see why myself and my opinions should not be welcomed here.

I also agree with the curve. I have always said that Himel jackets are not technically worth the premium you pay for them over Aero.

 

[Benj]

He's just saying that if you disagree with enough people to be bothered by it, you don't *have* to post here.

But I think it's always best to post somewhere, especially if you have a different opinion. It livens the place up and prevents it from being an echo chamber. Just gotta be respectful!

 

[Sloan1874]

Not saying 'get out', just wondering why somebody who disagrees with the majority of people here would hang around the place.
I think some of Himel's stuff is nice, tho I'd contend Japanese makers tend to be more interesting at that price point.

 

[ton312]

the comparisons of the jackets to speaking poorly about those making them

At what point? I bought jackets from Dave when he was an eBay store. I read his blog. Speaking poorly about him? No. I don't see that at all.

 

[Benj]

Sorry, should've been more clear. Speaking poorly about those making the comparisons:

"After this statement you paint yourself as nothing more than a label whore with precisely the attitude I was describing in the first two sentences of my post. I need not look beyond that."

 

[Monitor]

Part of this is due to the fact that people who buy jackets from Himel and the like are looking for the best. I have noticed that the guys (in general) who buy Himel, RMC, FW, etc are guys that are also into raw denim, Japanese made clothing, etc. In general, we try to buy the best of everything. While possible, I doubt you would see a guy wearing a Himel also wearing Gustins. Chances are, he is wearing Ooe Yofuketen, Roy, The Flat Head, or Stevenson jeans. Hecis probably wearing Clinch, Role Club, or Viberg boots not Red Wings.

So in part, I agree with you in that it's a different person that buys each brand.

I don't think it's completely the need to justify. I know that the main the Himel defenders here have been or are currently members of other forums wear we can say "Himel is among the best jackets in the world and better than Aero" and pretty much everyone else will agree. I know this because I have seen this multiple times.

On several other forums, it's a given that Himel and the Japanese makers (and gw) are the best and justification is unecessary. Do we need to justify? Maybe not. However, this is a discussion forum and I did notice that you have not disagreed with any of my last points and instead just tried to essentially insult me instead.

This isn't a pissing contest. We are doing a great job of providing evidence to our points and in fact it's the Himel detractors who have been far more insulting than Ben, Superfluous, and myself. I would say that is in much poorer form.

Also, I notice that something in common I see with many who detract Himel and the like is the need to fe that their jackets are just as good as a Himel (in whatever way they put forth) so as to feel their purchase is worthwhile as well. Not everyone does this of course, but this is the same argument you just made essentially.

I also take issue with you saying that it's not OK for us to assert that our jackets are not better in some way. First of all, it's a discussion forum so some debate is necessary to keep this from being a forum full of yes men (something I believe is necessary).

I don't have much experience with Lost Worlds. Maybe they can make that argument, but I have no data points to discuss their jackets.

Honest question, Dude: why do you like Himel's jackets? Do you like the vintage style, or simply knowing that you're wearing the best leather jacket in the world? I'm guessing if you didn't like vintage inspired clothes, you'd be into whatever StyleForum is drooling over at the moment, right? Price-wise, Himel is right there at the middle, so it's not the money, right? 'cause jackets from other (fashion) brands are going anywhere north of 4 grands.

But for instance, I like shoulder gussets going all the way to where the front and the back panels of the jacket connect. Like on Beck 666. So... Neither Himel nor RMC are making a Cafe Racer like that. Johnson Leathers does. So, what do I do? Do I buy an inferior Johnson Leathers because there's a particular minute detail of a leather jacket that like? That made me fall in love with these old jackets and subsequently, the style?

Or do I give up on it and just buy Himel or RMC just because it's better than, say, Johnson Leather?

Better example; Let's say I am dead set on Indian Ranger. Where am I gonna get the Indian Ranger? Aero's the only company currently producing an accurate repro of this jacket so where does that leave me? With the best repro of the Indian Ranger but with an overall poorer jacket? And how is buying RMC, Himel, Vanson or FW gonna get me closer to having the Indian Ranger? What do I do, man? How's the best gonna get me to what I want?

Or an even better example; you just got your Kensington or RMC J-100 and someone makes a post about how they just bought a 1960's original in a trift store for $20. Brand new, has been sitting in some box for 50 something years. Horsehide, Talon hardware, early Buco tag, the whole shebang. Where does that leave your jacket, then? Is it still the best or is it just a copy which, in comparison, has no historical value whatsoever? Do you feel shittier because it's no longer the best?

See, that's the thing - I don't want anyone to feel they didn't do good enough. That their jacket is inferior simply because they couldn't dish out more money for it, even though it's exactly what they wanted. This is the real issue here and what irks me about this whole matter. It's why in this particular hobby, I believe there simply is no the best.

So why are you into vintage inspired clothes? Is it just the overall style that is appealing to you? Or are you simply in love with how the collar snap is positioned on the very point of the collar on an early Beau Breed?

Maybe I'm in a minority but that's why I'm here. . .

 

[ton312]

At what point? I bought jackets from Dave when he was an eBay store. I read his blog. Speaking poorly about him? No. I don't see that at all.

Sorry, should've been more clear. Speaking poorly about those making the comparisons:

"After this statement you paint yourself as nothing more than a label whore with precisely the attitude I was describing in the first two sentences of my post. I need not look beyond that."

This is my point about elitism. Seems crystal clear to me. People who buy Himmel are looking for the best...brand spouting blah blah blah. Everybody do your thing. Hardly worth the argument, you'll no sooner sway me than I will you or anybody else. And frankly, it's time for Luke Cage. That should be something we all agree on.