Jacket size

[retrofashion]

Hi guys,

I'm wondering something for a while now. I understand that when buying a modern suit, you should buy a jacket that has a chest measure 4" bigger than your own chest. So if you have a 40" chest you should go for a jacket that measures 22" from armpit to armpit. Does that same formula applies to vintage suits? I have the impression vintage suits may be cut closer to the body since they sure look way more streamlined and for that reason maybe this rule of thumb would change when buying a vintage suit. Maybe you should go for a jacket chest of only 3" or even 2" bigger than your chest. Or am I completely wrong and the chest still needs to be 4" bigger and the pinched waist makes all the difference for the streamlined look?
Thanks.

 

[luvthatlulu]

I've never heard of that particular "rule", although it may work for most average built Joes. Instead, I would advise you to seek the advice of a competent tailor on any jacket or suit you are considering and avoid such rules of thumb per se. The chest, in fact, is probably the wrong place to start seeking your correct size for at least two reasons:

1. What will you be carrying inside the jacket on any given day? Eyeglass case, checkbook, pocket secretary, Glock 9mm, etc? All of these will increase the circumference of your "chest measurement" and may necessitate even more allowance. Will you add a vest on some occasions, or a heavy sweater? Even adding a pocket square seems to make some difference.

2. Are your broad- or narrow-shouldered with a significantly smaller or larger chest and waist size? Barrel-chested? Have a prominent belly?

Try to fit the shoulders correctly first with any items that you might normally carry inside the jacket during the fitting. A suit that is too narrow in the shoulder or too wide will either be uncomfortable to wear or look like a truly bad hand-me-down. Make sure the sleeves drop vertically from the shoulder with no excess fabric billowing at the area where the sleeve is attached or at the bicep. Working downward, let the tailor adjust accordingly (and as able) for a bulbous midsection, prominent butt, or narrow waist. If there is such wide diversity in the width of your shoulders and your chest/midsection that you have to jockey more than two sizes to compensate for one or the other, you might want to consider having a custom made suit or jacket made rather than buying off the rack. Even the best of tailors can only do so much with OTR garments.

--Not the Lulu

 

[carter]

Buying a suit is a lot like..buying a suit.

Not all suits are cut the same way and there are many measurements to consider. Vintage suits were made for people who were generally smaller than we are today.

Do as suggested and see a good tailor. This doesn't mean go get a bespoke suit. It does mean see someone who knows clothes and how they fit your body type.

Two Men's Clothiers, Brooks Bros. and Jos. A. Banks usually have competent tailors on-site who are capable of making alterations to their products. If there are major alterations needed, they may send the garment out for alteration.

In these establishments, you have the advantage of product and alteration under one roof. My experience is, if you want something that just won't work, they'll tell you it won't work. They'll try to meet your requirements but not at the expense of losing a potential long-term customer to a poor fit.

Buying vintage is another thing altogether. If you're buying on-line, know all your mesurements. Chest won't be the most critical. The fitting of the armholes will be.
If buying vintage on-line (you can't try it on) be sure to ask lots of questions and, after receiving aswers, if it doesn't feel right walk away.

There are good threads on the FL regarding suits and sportcoats. Matt Deckard and others are very knowledgable. Read all you can and get as much information as possible.

Best of luck.

 

[luvthatlulu]

Buying a suit is a lot like..buying a suit.

Not all suits are cut the same way and there are many measurements to consider.

Correct. Too many guys want carved-in-stone rules to follow that will guarantee correct results. None exist. As I said in another thread, a full-length mirror and a competent tailor should be involved in the process of selecting and fitting any and all jackets and suits. No exceptions. Like they say about attorneys who attempt to represent themselves, the [tailor] who [fits] himself has a fool for a client.

 

[retrofashion]

Hey luvthatlulu, thanks for you extensive reply.

I've never heard of that particular "rule", although it may work for most average built Joes.

I found several sites repeating that tip. One of them is this one:

http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/Tutorials/AndrewHarrisEBayMeasurement.htm

Instead, I would advise you to seek the advice of a competent tailor on any jacket or suit you are considering and avoid such rules of thumb per se.

Yes, I have decided to go to a tailor and have my measures taken instead of relying on the measures my wife took. But as I’m buying online that as much as I can do as I can’t try the suits on before buying.

The chest, in fact, is probably the wrong place to start seeking your correct size for at least two reasons:

1. What will you be carrying inside the jacket on any given day? Eyeglass case, checkbook, pocket secretary, Glock 9mm, etc? All of these will increase the circumference of your "chest measurement" and may necessitate even more allowance. Will you add a vest on some occasions, or a heavy sweater? Even adding a pocket square seems to make some difference.

2. Are your broad- or narrow-shouldered with a significantly smaller or larger chest and waist size? Barrel-chested? Have a prominent belly?

I have broad shoulders (21” at least to fit well), a broad chest (45 ½)and narrow waist (36), so I find it quite hard to find a suit that fits me well. If it fits the shoulders well it will most likely be too lose on the body/waist and will look like a sack hanging on me.

Try to fit the shoulders correctly first with any items that you might normally carry inside the jacket during the fitting. A suit that is too narrow in the shoulder or too wide will either be uncomfortable to wear or look like a truly bad hand-me-down. Make sure the sleeves drop vertically from the shoulder with no excess fabric billowing at the area where the sleeve is attached or at the bicep. Working downward, let the tailor adjust accordingly (and as able) for a bulbous midsection, prominent butt, or narrow waist.

Yes, that seems to be good advice as I have recently bought a suit online and the shoulders are slightly too small, but the jacket waist fits fine. I was advised to buy the correct shoulder measures and have the waist narrowed down by a tailor if needed. Now that you repeat the same advice I’m thinking of going this way next time. How much is it possible when narrowing the waist? Is it possible to pinch a jacket that is originally not pinched?

Thanks.

 

[retrofashion]

Thanks for the pointer Carter.

Buying a suit is a lot like..buying a suit.

Not all suits are cut the same way and there are many measurements to consider. Vintage suits were made for people who were generally smaller than we are today.

I’ve been noticing that. Standing at 6.1 and 210lbs it’s not being easy to find me a vintage suit. I’ve been running around 2nd hand stores with a buddy and he always finds nice vintage suits that fit him. But he is 5.10 and 170lbs. But the main problem is not my weight, but my silhouette. I bodybuild so a suit to fit me has to have a athletic kind of cut with broad shoulder and narrow waist. Just not easy to find.

Two Men's Clothiers, Brooks Bros. and Jos. A. Banks usually have competent tailors on-site who are capable of making alterations to their products.

That’s a good tip but I’m looking for vintage.

Buying vintage is another thing altogether. If you're buying on-line, know all your mesurements. Chest won't be the most critical. The fitting of the armholes will be.

Yes. I’m buying vintage.
What’s the right question to ask when it comes to armholes? What measure should I ask to confirm them and what am I looking for here? I know they shoulder be higher than today#s suits, but what’s a reference point?

If buying vintage on-line (you can't try it on) be sure to ask lots of questions and, after receiving aswers, if it doesn't feel right walk away.

Yes, I’m in fact looking into buying online since I’m not having much luck at local 2nd hand shops.

There are good threads on the FL regarding suits and sportcoats. Matt Deckard and others are very knowledgable. Read all you can and get as much information as possible.

Yes. I’ve been reading around since I joined. But it’s all so spread out that it is taking a while. But I will get there.

Thanks.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Fitting a jacket is a complicated business. Everyone likes their jacket to fit differently. I like mine very snug to accentuate the shoulder/chest-waist-hip ratio (maximum waist suppression), so the 4" is more like 2" for my taste.

I have heard that for most people, 4" is a good rule of thumb. But i am certainly not the chap to be telling you to slavishly follow a "rule".


The most important thing is to know in detail your own naked body measurements. Only then can you make an informed decision as to what will fit best. Be aware: The most common problems with men's jackets (that make them look just plain bad: Shoulders too big & Length too long. If you get these two right, you can usually soak up some wiggle room on the other measurements. My own vintage jackets vary by as much as 3" in the circumferential chest measurement, but the shoulders and lengths are correct (for the most part) so i can get away with this and just say the big ones are "drape" models.

bk

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Yes. I’m buying vintage.
What’s the right question to ask when it comes to armholes? What measure should I ask to confirm them and what am I looking for here? I know they shoulder be higher than today#s suits, but what’s a reference point?

If the jacket is from before the early 1970s (American) or if it's before the 1990s (British) you won't need to worry about the armholes. They'll be small.

bk

 

[benstephens]

Baron,

What do you consider a good length for a jacket, I tend ideally like to wear a Dbl breated just slightly longer the a single breated.

I find the comfiest is between the top and half way down my thumb.

Kindest Regards

Ben

 

[Baron Kurtz]

On me it's 27" from the base of the collar to the rear hem . . . let me check.

Yes, just wrist-ward of the last thumb knuckle (the one closest to the nail).

bk

 

[Alan Eardley]

Interesting... I endorse everything the Baron says. You are your own best tailor, ITO knowing your own body measurements

I'm reading The Language of Clothes by Alison Lurie at the moment. The book has its faults, but in the chapter on 'Fashion and Status' she describes the changing attitudes to the fit of a man's jacket in a section called, 'The Rise and Fall of the Sack Suit'. Citing an article by John Berger reffering to the 19th and early 20th Century, Lurie points out that muscular figures (which she associates with manual labour and a low social status) looked less good in a loose jacket that in a more fitted form. Therefore, to show their higher social status, 'white collar' workers and 'men of leisure' began to wear (and make fashionable) sack jackets (which I associate with 4" or more of over-measure on the chest) to suit the fact that their waists equalled or exceeded their chest measuremants. By contrast, men used to hard manual labour, whose chests may have exceeded their waist measurements by 8" or more, looked ridiculous in a sack jacket (I know what she means) and were at a disadvantage in social situations when wearing the then-fashionable sack 'look'.

If we accept Lurie's thesis, most older men today have 'white collar' bodies and the cut of men's formal clothing reflects that. The sack look is back. That's (one reason) why I prefer vintage clothing.

Alan

 

[Alan Eardley]

Ben,

Surely that depends on the period, if you are trying for a period 'look'? men's jacket cuffs have moved up and down a lot over the years.

Also, personal preference is the most important thing IMHO. Your preferance below sounds very long to me. To show a reasonable amount of shirt, wouldn't that place the shirt cuff very far down the thumb? My friend Frank, who awas a tailor and cutter all his life, used to say that the shirt cuff should reach the first joint of the thumb (from the wrist) with the arms by the sides and the jacket cuff should be a finger width (I think he must have lost his tape measure at an early age) above that. And that sounds long to me (personal preference...)

Hang on - are you talking about sleeve or body length?

Alan

Baron,

What do you consider a good length for a jacket, I tend ideally like to wear a Dbl breated just slightly longer the a single breated.

I find the comfiest is between the top and half way down my thumb.

Kindest Regards

Ben

 

[retrofashion]

Fitting a jacket is a complicated business. Everyone likes their jacket to fit differently. I like mine very snug to accentuate the shoulder/chest-waist-hip ratio (maximum waist suppression), so the 4" is more like 2" for my taste.

That confirms what I was thinking. That vintage should be bought a bit smaller to get the right look. Thanks.

The most important thing is to know in detail your own naked body measurements. Only then can you make an informed decision as to what will fit best. Be aware: The most common problems with men's jackets (that make them look just plain bad: Shoulders too big & Length too long.

What’s a good way to measure your naked shoulder? Most people say to just get a jacket that fits you well in the shoulders and measure it from top shoulder seam to seam. But what’s a way to measure your own shoulder? Just around at the widest point with the arms down? But then how do you apply this measure? Just divide by 2 as is the case with the chest measure?

About jacket length, what I read here is that you can only shorten it up till an inch before the pockets start looking too low. Do you agree with that?

If you get these two right, you can usually soak up some wiggle room on the other measurements. My own vintage jackets vary by as much as 3" in the circumferential chest measurement, but the shoulders and lengths are correct (for the most part) so i can get away with this and just say the big ones are "drape" models.

Haha, good trick!
In case the chest is too big, is it possible or worth it to make it smaller for a closer fit? How about waist? Can the waist be made to be streamlined/snug on a jacket that has a loser fit?

Thanks Baron. Great tips.

 

[retrofashion]

Interesting... I endorse everything the Baron says. You are your own best tailor, ITO knowing your own body measurements

I'm reading The Language of Clothes by Alison Lurie at the moment. The book has its faults, but in the chapter on 'Fashion and Status' she describes the changing attitudes to the fit of a man's jacket in a section called, 'The Rise and Fall of the Sack Suit'. Citing an article by John Berger reffering to the 19th and early 20th Century, Lurie points out that muscular figures (which she associates with manual labour and a low social status) looked less good in a loose jacket that in a more fitted form.

Indeed. That’s the main problem when I’m looking for a suit. The sack style just make me look bad.

Therefore, to show their higher social status, 'white collar' workers and 'men of leisure' began to wear (and make fashionable) sack jackets (which I associate with 4" or more of over-measure on the chest)

Good to have one more confirmation on this. I will start shooting for a 2” over-measure on the chest from now on instead of 4”.

to suit the fact that their waists equalled or exceeded their chest measuremants. By contrast, men used to hard manual labour, whose chests may have exceeded their waist measurements by 8" or more,

My chest actually exceeds my waist by 10” and I still want to drop at least 2” from my waist, so I guess I’m a hard manual labor man. Hehehe nobody ever said bodybuilding wasn’t hard labor.

looked ridiculous in a sack jacket (I know what she means) and were at a disadvantage in social situations when wearing the then-fashionable sack 'look'.

Ha! I hate that look. It’s just a nightmare to find a suit that fits me without giving me that sack look.

If we accept Lurie's thesis, most older men today have 'white collar' bodies and the cut of men's formal clothing reflects that. The sack look is back. That's (one reason) why I prefer vintage clothing.

It’s just interesting to look back and see how concepts and views changed. A muscular man was seen as low classed labor/blue collar and a man that had a waist as big as his chest seen as the desirable. Today is much the other way around. A friend who is going to fashion school said they are thought that an average men’s suit should have trousers with at least 4” to 6” smaller than the chest or that person needs to go into a diet.
The same thing happened to women, although going farther back to Victorian times, but still noticeable up to the 30’s. Back in the day, heavier women were the sexy model, because that meant they could afford enough food and weren’t poor. Now look at all the walking skeletons on the catwalks. Marilyn Monroe would be considered over weight by a lot of people today. Can you grasp that? Monroe over weight?
Times change.


Thanks for the great post Alan. Really insightful.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

What’s a good way to measure your naked shoulder?

The "get a jacket that fits how you like it" is good advice. For a naked measurement, you get some kind soul to take the measurement for you.

bk

 

[retrofashion]

The "get a jacket that fits how you like it" is good advice. For a naked measurement, you get some kind soul to take the measurement for you.

bk

Hehehe, sure. But what I meant was how and where to measure and how to apply the measure.

Also, would you have anything to add to my 2 other questions?

Thanks.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Sorry 'bout that. yes, suppressing the waist should be no problem. Same for chest. Both so long as you're not trying to take many inches off!

I've never liked playing with the length of jackets. The thing was conceived as a whole, and i've never found the results of other peoples shortening efforts to be particularly successful. I'd steer clear of that. Don't worry too much. You'll find there's quite a bit of wiggle room Re: length too.

bk

 

[luvthatlulu]

Baron,

What do you consider a good length for a jacket, I tend ideally like to wear a Dbl breated just slightly longer the a single breated.

I find the comfiest is between the top and half way down my thumb.

Kindest Regards

Ben

Here again, there are no hard and fast rules that will work for everyone. Scale and balance is what is important in jacket length. The rule-makers say the jacket should end at about half your overall height. Fine. Is that measurement taken with or without shoes? Problem, too, is that some folks may have longer legs and shorter torsos and vice versa. What about someone with particularly long or short arms? Let me say again: Let a full-length mirror (preferably a tri-fold so you can see various angles at the same time) and a competent tailor advise you here. Baby, if it doesn't look right to you--it isn't. And, if the aforementioned tailor is shaking his head (or stifling a laugh), it probably isn't either regardless of what you think. Forget rules. Look in the mirror and be your harshest critic.

But, please....no matter what, show a little shirtcuff (@1/4" for a tall man and 1/2" for a short man). If your shirtsleeves keep disappearing up your jacket sleeve, the jacket is going to look too long and ill-fitted (think Dopey's tunic in Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs).



--Not the Lulu

 

[luvthatlulu]

One more thing.

With all the respect in the world to folks like Indy Magnoli et al, I don't recommend trying to get a proper fitting jacket or suit in this manner. This is no reflection on their skills or lack thereof. Even the best bespoke tailors on Savile Row need a hands-on fitting or two to get it right.

Does this mean no one should order a custom garment on-line or off eBay? No. Just don't have an overly high expectation of what the end result will be. Years ago, for example, I was well-acquainted by way of a business arrangement with the head tailor at the Polo Ralph Lauren "factory" in Lawrence, Massachusetts. I would routinely pick a PRL fabric swatch and order a suit in my PRL size with certain special touches. Most of the time, I got close to what I wanted and would have to send it back several times for a remake. Finally, I actually went to the Lawrence location and got a personal fitting. Voila! No more problems.

If you are adamant about buying online or by mail order, do yourself a favor and make the first step finding a competent local tailor to take the measurements required for you. And don't monkey around with a lot of special requests from the maker's "stock" pattern. Instead, make a friend of the local tailor and let him finish the garment for you--and compensate him accordingly!

 

[Micawber]

When I was involved in the gentlemen's outfitting and tailoring trade more years ago than I care to mention we would usually add two inches to the actual chest measurement plus room for a finger or two under the tape.

That said for off the peg jackets I quickly developed the knack of sizing someone without resorting to the tape simply by casting a quick eye over the build of the individual as they approached. So when a chap came in and asked for such and such a jacket in such and such a cloth it was invariably possible to ask something like "in a 44 short?" resulting in said chap quickly asking how I knew.

We used to have bets on it lol