Italian Cut Suits on Larger Men

[Roen]

I wanted to pick the brains of the members here regarding Italian Cut suits on larger men. As I understand it, the Italian cut suit is mainly designed for the body type of the classic Italian gentleman. However, I wonder if the majority of the features can be adopted to the body types of larger gentlemen, with certain modifications.

Jacket:
Light Cloth
Light Canvas
Unstructured Shoulder
Fitted (but not so tight that it shows the body outline)
Sleek Silhouette
High Buttons
Flapless (Jetted) Pockets
High Gorge Lines
Low Overall Padding
No Vent (This may not work well for larger men, so centre vent instead?)

Pants:
Tapered Waist
Tight Hips
No Break

 

[Mathematicus]

I am Italian and in my opinion, if the look you have in mind is the current trendy "italianate" look, you are safer avoiding it. Especially the trousers; Italian trousers are cut in such a horrid way, today, that I am now relieving that I've moved so I don't have to touch one of them anymore. The usual suit trousers in Italy feature low waist, very fitted hips (in other words, useless pockets), very high crotch and almost skin-tight fitted legs which, even if they have the right lenght, can not drape properly on the shoes due to their width.
I don't like roomy cuts, I am really into the preference of a fitted jacket and especially I'm not too fond of too wide straight legged trousers, but I absolutely don't tolerate being wrapped up in a sort of chastity belt with no way to put the hands in my pockets. Nobody can be comfortable in that cut, trust me, no matter what they say, Plus, the absence of break and the ridiculous shortness of the rise convey to the figure a clownish appeal, other than making everyone appear shorter (again, despite the "slendering effect" attributed to short trousers by designers; just compare yourself and you'll see).

 

[Claudio]

Allthough these are not Italian styles, this is just to show that tapered trousers with no break do not necessarily need to look clownish. IMO trousers must not have a break, and although I wear them both boggy and slimmer, I think its proportions what you need to be aware of. To dissmiss 'contemporary Italian style' alltogether is wrong, especially if you just look at Pitti pictures.
That siad, if you are a larger gent then I do agree that you should be wary of trim fit styles of trousers. Look for pleated, high waisted trousers, on the baggy side especially on the top part and if you want, it can slim down on the bottoms. As for the coat, as you correctly stated, no (little) padding on shoulders and chest, 2 buttons (avoid 3 buttons if in a classic cut), make sure the sleeve length isn't too long (usual mistake).

 

[Claudio]

This is a famous Italian politician, big as you can see, but gives and idea on how it can work. Here is shirt sleeve should be longer so as to show when arm is straight down, but over all looks fine (although it is not shown buttoned up)

 

[Mathematicus]

Alz, I'm not sure I'm getting the meaning of your message. Indeed it is true that you can find two kinds of cuts in the market nowadays in Italy, but the point is that if you fix the price level you have no reasonable choice.
For instance, at the lowest end you can choose between the "slim fit" department - in which the unique style found is the skinny modern one - and the "classic fit" department - in which you can find the same boxy cuts of 15 years ago, with sizes starting from 42 but either in ugly proportions or with oversized measurements. Cuts in the first case are much better than before regarding armscye depth and shoulder padding but still you can't get away with such disproportion.
I am a size 36 with long legs and arms and I've always struggled to find something of a decent fit in Italy which is not ultra-trendy skinny fit. And note that I don't look for the "classic", "traditional" cuts, but I would content myself with a pair of trousers with 8'' opening, normal rise and a jacket which at least covers my bottom. You can't find such details in Italy, neither in a higher price level. The rise of the trousers is low even in classic fit suits, go figure. Even in the mid range of brands like Zegna, Caruso, Canali you won't find a "midly tailored" cut: either the skinny modern or baggy classic - if your size does exist, of course...
Time ago I tried on a very nice flannel jacket from Flannel Bay at a Coin superstore (the one in Piazza San Giovanni, Rome, if you know that); the jacket fit very well and had a hint of neapolitan tailoring (after sizing up to a 38) even if it was a bit short, but the trousers were almost impossible to wear being so tight and skinny (however the waist was big on me! Silly!). Price: 350 without alterations and without possibility of choice between fits. For a tooo short jacket and trouser with 32 waist and leg opening measuring a silly 6 inches this is robbery.
I believe that this is an appalling scenario when compared to the English market, for instance. I got a suit from Taylor and Wright, which is a low-low-low end tailoring brand selling suits for less than 100£. I was expecting the worst but I was pleased to see that the the fit (described as "tailored" and also available in "slim" and "regular" for the same model and size) is very flattering, the fabric is nice and with a minimal bit of alterations it looks well ahead the equivalent Italian low-ended crap.

 

[Claudio]

MAthematics - hopefully you are not implying that Italians are poorly dressed? If the scenario was as you say it is (I believe the complete opposite), then Italy would be known for it's men (both young and old) dressed in ill fitting crap suits. Quiet the contrary. Anyone with a bare minimal sense of style (and/or knowledge) will see this is not so. I am not necessarily captivated with general 'Italian Style' mind you, but one must face realities. Italians, from a youngster to an older aged person, all have a sense of Style - it may not be to our liking, but Style it is. This is the only country in the world where you can see this. It is true that there are more places catering for larger men in the UK because, well, you just have to look at the population (Uk men are much larger). A simple demand-offer. You can surely debate you prefer British style of tailoring than Italian - that's a matter of personal taste. 350euro is the bare minimum to buy something decently made with a decent fabric and construction. Suits for less than 100 quid are in no way a good prodcut with decent construction and good quality natural fibres, let's not kid ourselves. You can find many shit quality clothes in Italy too, mind, and they vary between 100euro to much higher. This is true and I am not denying this. But if you are paying 350euro in Italy usually it's a decent garment (although depends on varying factors). If you are paying 100 pounds in the UK (as in Italy) for a suit you are buying a very low quality suit, no doubt

 

[Mathematicus]

I wonder what part of Italy you have lived in. I was born in a small village, then I moved to Florence, then I moved to Rome and then I moved abroad. So I have seen a lot of different Italian work and social environments, from different culture and lifestyle levels. More importantly, I have met people from many backgrounds, among which many of them wore suits to work every day - so my view reflects the actual Italian population, not the cinema people, the models or the wealthy, non-working class.

As I have said, I am not questioning the QUALITY of clothing pieces that we can find in Italy. I could just step into Brioni in Rome, or buy any other classic brand like Zegna, Canali, Corneliani. Whatever you want, they offer very high quality garments at a price that sometimes is even quite reasonable (you can find Canali and Brioni at a decent price, though not from their top lines).

However, the CUT is invariably the same and there is little variation between the models in the same fit. If you want traditional-cut trousers, then you get a boxy jacket (and you must be above size 40, of course). If you want a fitted jacket, then you get skinny trousers. And, always, always, low rise trousers, in any cut.
There is always the search for the extreme, no balance. The customer has no right of choosing his own cut, except when going MTM (and even in that case there are strong limitations on basic things like the rise of trousers or the buttoning stance of the jacket). I have tried on all of the above mentioned brands (and much more) and despite the quality of the product I found very upsetting that nothing exists between the classic cut and the skinny cut.

I don't know where you read that I look for big sizes (maybe you were referring to the original poster) but for me it happens quite the contrary, being of size 36. And your claim about UK market catering for bigger sizes is really hilarious, as I've been able to find true-to-size 36 suits paired with trousers cut for human legs only here in England. The example of under 100 suits was meant only to show that in UK, even at such a price level, there are many options offered. The thing you get is not a Brioni, but it is neither one of the pieces of skinny shit sold for twice or thrice the price in Italy.

"All Italians have style". Please, has this stereotype really a place today? Do you actually consider stylish changing wardrobe every year because someone decided "this year we must all wear this"? Italians are only fashion conscious, but they have lost any sense of style. In the past Italy was one of most conservative countries in terms of clothing; bespoke tailoring survived extensively even through the Nineties, while in the other parts of the world the clothing industries were the norm since decades. Italian style in the Fifties was admired because of its classical and timeless proportions, not because it was extreme.

 

[Mathematicus]

Mathematicus: I wonder since how much time you left Italy. 'Cause it looks as you forgot about what happens here. You mention Brioni and such brands, hats off to them but there are tons of other brands offering high quality/well cut clothes. Please, take a look to Styleforum. You'll find there are brands, such as Eidos Napoli, highly respected by members there from over the world.

Which brands? Apart from Eidos (which I didn't know), please name me an Italian brand from which I can buy a two piece suit in size 36 with fitted jacket, medium rise trousers and a hem of at least 21 cm, with an expense of less than 300 euros. I'm not even asking about construction or quality fabrics, just cut. It is easy to find details with a higher bugdet, or bigger size too.

Maybe I am wrong but what you say about suit's bad cut in Italy makes me think you don't wear suits often.

You must have misread, as I wear suits ever work-day (like you said to do).

I find here low, medium or high rise trousers starting from 39 Euros, not great materials but still well cut. If you want a full wool trouser, high waist and hand finished, you can find them starting from around 70 Euros.

Are you serious? Where do you live, in the land of Cockaigne? Go inside any men's attire shop in Rome and let me know the average price for a machine made, standard pattern, wool blend trousers.
Or, if you prefer, step inside the average clothing supermarked in a sub-urban area of central Italy and let me know the vast amount of choice you will find.
Of course if you are above size 40 or if you like slim fitting clothes, this doesn't count.

And for the "baggy jackets" issue you mention: do you know about the sartorial concept of "Drop"?

Do you? You make it look like something amazing, but the concept of drop is around mensewear sizing since decades. The problem is that, while abroad the fit of the jacket and the fit of the trousers are two separated factors, in Italy brands still don't make people choose what they want.
Drop 6 suit? Regular cut trousers leg, fairly low waist (if you are lucky you get a medium rise waist, but with double outward pleats), jacket cut like a size bigger (and short-ish sleeves). No joking, measurements at hand: suit tagged 44 R drop 6 (34 R in UK size), chest measuring 20'' pit to pit, shoulders 17.5'', waist 19'' at central button. Namely, the measurements of a (roomy) 36.
Drop 7 suit? Closer cut jacket, good proportions in the midsection for the slimmer men, usually the waist of the trousers is higher, (not always, though) but thighs, knees and hem are ridiculously narrow. Usually well under 7.5 inches. And I wear a size 6 shoe, go figure those wearing 9 or 10.

 

[Mathematicus]

Alz, I believe we just have different views and, especially, different needs. Nothing wrong with that, mind you!
First, I think you had a wrong impression about me, as I'm only 26 years old and I am definitely not stuck to the 80's fashion point of view!
The brands you mention are well known to me. I liked some of the styling from Gutteridge, but we will never agree if you consider them to be good quality/price compromise. I visited a Gutteridge shop (at Valdichiana outlet) about 1 year ago and while I liked the neapolitan appearance of the coats (especially the lapels, so lively!), I was a bid disappointed by low armholes, tight fitting back and paper-thin fabric. Such a fabric wouldn't last more than 2 year of normal rotation. I can find an equivalent quality jacket (and probably less tight-fitting) for less than half the price at the "superstore" brand I mentioned above. Why should pay more to get the same quality and a worse fit?

About trousers. You haven't specified the cut of these trousers, but I suspect that they are cut rather slim throughout the leg. Now, I don't know where do you work, but I sit at my desk most of the day and low rise, skinny fitted trousers are extremely uncomfortable after a hour of work. Plus, the very thin fabric, no matter how luxurious they will advertise it, is a no-go for the time I travel from home to office and viceversa (I don't drive). This is less of an issue in souhtern Italy, of course, but here in England superfine tropical wool is really just a fashion mannerism.

I need my suits to be realiable and comfortable, but also good looking and well tailored. I assure you that I have a strong relationship with tailors and I am very picky when it comes to details like sleeve width, waist width, collar fit and lapel roll. My grand-father was a tailor as well so I have a good eye for fit issues.
My work requires me to spend a lot of time sat down at a desk or moving my arms in front of a blackboard. So garments that are tight in the blades or in the shoulders (like most fashionable brands in Italy) are not practical for the second purpose. At the same time, sitting down requires the trousers to be cut not too tight.
As I said before, I dislike the excess when it comes to tailoring, so I'm not saying that I want to swim in a droopy Armani-like jacket with a pair of shapeless 3-pleated trousers. If I could afford it, I would go to a bespoke tailor and I would order what I want. But I can't, that's the point. So I try to opt for a balanced look carefully selecting the garments and altering what I can alter. It turned out that most Italian brand either don't carry my size, or don't satisfy the basic needs at the price level I can afford.

 

[Claudio]

Wasn't this post about larger sizes? I am naturally answering to the original post, don't know what you are on about to be honest. I am from the Veneto region, Italian manufacturing capital (not the Sartorial capital mind), I have been designing and producing (Italian, not CHinese-Italian as there are so many in FLorence/Prato and Naples) artisan made suits, knits, shirts, hats, coats, shoes in the Veneto region for about 17 years and still have prodcution there for most of my line. I lived there from '86 to 2009 (that's 23 years as an adult as I am now 50) but still visit every 2 months. I too am an Italian size 44 (36 I am assuming is your inch chest size?) and really find you are living in another world with some of your comments. Style in Italy (whether one likes it or not) is everywhere, it's about the only positive thing there is left in that god forsaken country lol.

 

[Claudio]

btw, I am an Italian brand and I make one of the highest rise trousers in the (RTW) market (around 13"/33cm waist rise that is) with one of the widest/legs (11"/28cm). My sizes start at italian 42 (28" waist/35" chest) and go all the way up to it54/38" waist suits and shirts from XXS to comfort fit XXL. I still have to see UK (micro) brands having this kind of ranges

 

[Claudio]

Alz - I have 2 labels, 'DNA Manifattura Italiana' and 'De Rossi' both currently being sold online www.dnagroove.it (first men's online label in Italy, back in 2001)

 

[Hats Matter]

I am a larger sized person and have worn Italian suits, sport coats and slacks for many years. However, I am able to afford clothing at the higher end of the price range (Brioni and Kiton) and thus have not had a problem purchasing stylish clothing. You need to look at the quality of the fabric and, most importantly, the skill set of the tailor either making the garment or making the alterations. A bad tailor can absolutely butcher a good quality suit through lack of skill or just plain incompetence.

In my experience, a high quality suit made by Brioni or Kiton will last many years if properly cared for and worn on a regular basis. You have a much higher up front cost but it pays off in the long run as you do not need to replace an inferior product.