Is Hat Ettiquette Obsolete?

[CaramelSmoothie]

If you see a lady with a parcel who's not struggling with it, it's rude to offer help to her simply because she's a woman.

You learn something new everyday. I would give a serious side eye to any woman who viewed this as being rude. I take public transit and I see men giving up their seat to women and women only all the time and men always offer their seat to me. I never once looked at them as being rude, just as men who were raised with good manners.

 

[Huertecilla]

Context

Some ten years ago I started a sunday moring ride to and through the village as a phase in the dressage of a particular mare, wearing my own particular 18th C. style outfit.
It is inevitable that every now and then there is a woman waiting at a pedestrian crossing. I stop the horse and make a mounted reverence matching the attire.
Í though this great fun, more a caricature than anything serious.
Within a few weeks however women appeared on the balconies along my route; verbally complimenting and applauding even.
The phase was completed and I moved on, stopped doing it, but I STILL get the occasional remark about it.

The moral of this story is that the herd being bland, grey does not mean that colour is not appreciated.

 

[jlee562]

You learn something new everyday. I would give a serious side eye to any woman who viewed this as being rude. I take public transit and I see men giving up their seat to women and women only all the time and men always offer their seat to me. I never once looked at them as being rude, just as men who were raised with good manners.

Let me rephrase, it's rude to assume she needs help because she's a woman.

edit: Actually, to be the most precise I can be, let's state it as: some women today, will be offended if a male assumes that they need help with a heavy parcel. As in the example with the door, you open the door because it is courteous. Likewise, if you see someone struggling, you offer help because it is courteous. But the assumption that a woman must need the help of a man with such tasks is what some women today will object to.

While the intent of the action is courtesy, it may not be received as such.

 

[Huertecilla]

You learn something new everyday. I would give a serious side eye to any woman who viewed this as being rude.

Quite!
As I wrote:
´Van valse wijven,
moet je verre blijven.´

Appreciation good manners does not make a woman unemancipated.

 

[Huertecilla]

Let me rephrase, it's rude to assume she needs help because she's a woman.

If she were a big bloke he would most likely not struggle with the bags, so imo she most likely IS struggling BECAUSE she is a woman.
It is still nice, good mannered, to help.

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

Let me rephrase, it's rude to assume she needs help because she's a woman.

Women are the weaker sex (in terms of physical strength) so I think that would be a fair assumption to make. But then again, I wasn't raised in a community that was heavily engaged in the feminist movement so my opinion on this would probably run counter to what they would deem as acceptable behavior from men.

 

[CaramelSmoothie]

Quite!
As I wrote:
´Van valse wijven,
moet je verre blijven.´

Appreciation good manners does not make a woman unemancipated.

LOL, thank you for the translation.

 

[jlee562]

Women are the weaker sex (in terms of physical strength) so I think that would be a fair assumption to make. But then again, I wasn't raised in a community that was heavily engaged in the feminist movement so my opinion on this would probably run counter to what they would deem as acceptable behavior from men.

You assume that someone needs help if you don't see them struggling with it? That's the idea. The assumption that a woman must need a man's help to accomplish a certain task is viewed as sexist, and actions that stem from that assumption are seen by rude (by those who hold that view, obviously).

The more relevant point to hat etiquette as it pertains to this thread though, was encapsulated by the quote I posted earlier.

 

[Mr Oldschool]

Carmel Smoothie, if you are anything like how you appear in type, I can see why men treat you like a lady... You really are one, and I digitally tip my hat to you!

 

[fedoracentric]

"The assumption that a woman must need a man's help to accomplish a certain task is viewed as sexist, and actions that stem from that assumption are seen by rude..."

First of all, any female that doesn't appreciate the help of a man or even a woman when they are struggling with something deserves a thorough cursing out.

Second of all, offering to help anyone else who is struggling with something is offering a kindness, not a "sexist" attack on their competency or personal worth.

 

[Huertecilla]

Second of all, offering to help anyone else who is struggling with something is offering a kindness, not a "sexist" attack on their competency or personal worth.

..and a woman who JUMPS to that conclusion is best avoided.

 

[Huertecilla]

LOL, thank you for the translation.

Nono, sorry for the confusion
It was not a translation, but a different observation.

The in english rather less catching translation of the personal lema is
´From vicious women stay,
best very far away.´

I may shortly start another topic on the hat shopping date theme.
In the aftermath of the Málaga outing I wrote to you that I had met a woman quite knowledgeable on hats though she does not wear them
I went out with her last friday and will see her again tomorrow evening. We had too much of a good time conversing about other things but what she casually observed about ceremonial hats already went further than mý admittedly limited hat knowledge.
Depending on various variablea we máy visit a famous millinery; one off women´s hats.

The lady is btw totally emancipated, independent, successfull and also very feminine, anti-feminist and appreciative of a courtuous man. On saying goodby friday we walked down rather high and steep stairs thús I offered her my arm. I did not assume she was incompetent or needed help walking on her elegant half high heeled shoes but simply tried to be níce by providing extra balance which she gracefully appreciated. Emancipated, nót vicious, highly desireable company.

I am not entirely clear about how much time she has but have arranged my agenda to be open ended so we will have time enough to possibly get to hats.

 

[fashion frank]

I have only had one man doff his hat to me and I'm sure he did it because I was wearing a hat as well. When he did it, I was so caught off guard that I didn't know what I was supposed to do next if anything. I simply smiled and said "Thank you". At the time I didn't even know it was called "doffing" LOL. These days I would welcome it though...I think it's cute actually.

Ah yes I was waitng for someone like you to come along.

Just like you stated about a man giving you up his seat on a bus etc etc.
There are still women ( and men) who can appreciate good manners and saying thank you to a man who tips his hat ,offers his seat ,is willing to help carry a bunble etc etc etc. is a woman with "class" because she accepts his token of respect for the finer sex and doesn't get a case of the a** because a man was trying to be polite and have good manners and show a little "class".

All this bugaboo about is it dead or it it not is all a bunch of malarkey if I do it and you notice it then it is not dead!

Thanks for weighting in and making it so crystial clear and if I may be so polite as to say thank you .

All the Best ,Fashion Frank

 

[jlee562]

"The assumption that a woman must need a man's help to accomplish a certain task is viewed as sexist, and actions that stem from that assumption are seen by rude..."

First of all, any female that doesn't appreciate the help of a man or even a woman when they are struggling with something deserves a thorough cursing out.

Second of all, offering to help anyone else who is struggling with something is offering a kindness, not a "sexist" attack on their competency or personal worth.

Was not speaking of someone who was struggling with something, explicitly the opposite. The example of behavior that might be deemed as sexist by some is precisely when such person displays no struggle. Thus the "courtesy" IS rooted in the assumption that the woman is incapable. It's the difference between "I'll do that for you," and "may I help you with that?"

One might infer an attack on one's competency from the first, whereas the second is a courteous offer.

 

[fedoracentric]

"Thus the "courtesy" IS rooted in the assumption that the woman is incapable."

Total, absolute nonsense and the sort of modern, feminist nonsense that is destroying common courtesy.

The kindness is extended to men as well as women. It is a kindness, not a sexism. Me, for instance, I open a door at a store for many or woman, young or old.

Again, any woman that uses this "logic" is an ignoramus.

 

[HudsonHawk]

A few anecdote about helping out someone who needs it:

Being on an airplane often brings out the worst in people, and this is especially true when dealing with carry-on luggage. I regularly encounter people, not just females, but often they are, who struggle to lift their bag into the overhead. Since I am taller than most, and the overhead is not actually over my head, I offer assistance when it looks like it would be helpful (not just to said person, but for everyone who is waiting for said person to sit down). People are often annoyed that help is offered, and insist "no, I got it" then promptly drop their bag onto some poor guy sitting in the next row. More than once have I had a bag dropped on my head, and once, after a women refused help (and acted put off by the suggestion that she needed it), she dropped her bag into my face and broke my glasses. She did not offer an apology, only cemented her position that she didn't need help, while I sat there in my seat bleeding from my face and out a $300 pair of glasses.

On a positive note...last time I was in San Francisco area, I was taking the train from Walnut Creek into SF. When I got on, the train was not very full, and I sat down. After a few stops, however, it started to fill up and people were having to stand. At one point a woman got on carrying a backpack and a baby. She was obviously going to have trouble holding both and holding on to the handrail, so I offered her my seat. At first she seemed shocked and wasn't sure what to do. I said "no please, you've got your hands full, it's safer for both of you to sit." She thanked me reluctantly sat down. Several passengers commented that it was a nice gesture, and why didn't they think of it. I don't know, why didn't you?

 

[Edward]

That is why the ignore list grows & grows....neat feature, wish we had one to ignore threads too....

Ha... problem is The Ignored don't just disappear, the posts still show up with the "You're ignoring this! But go on, take a peak, remind yourself why you ignored this twit in the first place..." taunting.... lol

Another one is the explicit mention of the disrespectfull nature of having the lining in view. This conflicts a bit with the manufacturers user instructionfor a fedora to not put that with the rim down.

The English standard, back when top hats and morning dress were 'normal' for the upper classes, was that the hat, when carried, should always be held with the lining pointed down or against the body. If the hat was held upside down, with the lining pointed upwards, it was considered to look like the begging bowl of a poor person. Whatever would the Joneses say about that?

I think etiquette is entirely contextual. I practice it that way. To do otherwise is to make it an act that is only affectatious and is only a caricature of etiquette.

Example: you enter a church where no others are wearing any head cover and you take off yours. This is practical relevant etiquette.

The 'when in Rome' standard. It's certainly sensible to get the lie of the land and not push one's own cultural norms in a place where they can cause offence. Tipping culture is a classic on this front, or Westerners ruffling kids' hair in Thailand, or nyone who generally comes across as pushing the superiority of their own cultural norms in the face of something different, which is boorish.

My apologies for misunderstanding your reference. I stand corrected.

No offence taken at all - I did reference a particularly obscure tribal grouping - terminology like that can be confusing when so unfamiliar.

Yes you are, but not if you wear, open toed, Jesus sandals. That will incur the wrath of the 'Must Be Correct,' fashion police.

I can't imagine ever wearing sandals, but if I did, it would certainly be with socks. Unless I'd gone to the effort to paint my toenails and wanted to show them off.

 

[jlee562]

Whether or not you agree with the conclusion, the statement taken as a whole and not just one sentence excerpted, is logical. It doesn't mean that it's always sexist to be kind or courteous. And to be sure, not all women would agree to the above. But it's totally logical.

 

[-30-]

Is that the same as "The science is settled"?

J T

 

[Seb Lucas]

Hmm, I would never stand up for a woman or offer to help a woman with anything as an automatic convention. They are adults and can well manage without being infantilised by men. I would offer a frail, aged person a seat or open a door for them. Having worked and run services in the disability sector for many years I have also learned that offering assistance to a person with a disability is often seen as patronising - again they are adults and we shouldn't project our need to be helpful on them. If someone, anyone, appears to be struggling, you can always ask if they need help. As for hats, I wear them, that's it. I know not to wear them in a church, a place I would attend rarely. Other than that I don't want any guidelines.