Is British style not what it was (or maybe never was in the 1st place)?

[LuvMyMan]

I can agree with what many say here, but in all fairness to the original title of this thread...there are many main stay clothing firms and bespoke tailor shops and boot/shoe makers that are in all sense of the world, British. Shirts and suits from that area are still very well considered a prize to own, the tweeds also, and then the shoe and boots. I do not see anything to rival a well made upper end British made shoe or dress boot, made in the USA. Unless of course you find someone doing full custom made to order work. Myself, I purchase a lot of items for my Husband, and I find myself even drawn to socks made in England as being advertised as the best sock made, period. The prices of course are not cheap, but you know you have a super well made sock.

Also in mens accessories such as ties and pocket squares, dress formal attire, braces, belts, then outer wear, you know the shops that make those famous tweed overcoats and other shops that make the thick wool tweed sports coats. I do not name names, as there are so many TO name. True the Italians have their cut of the pie in fashion, but honestly, unless you are buying Brioni, or Zegna, Kiton, or some other insanely priced attire, you cannot come close to the craftsmanship or the quality of the clothing from the England, Scotland, Whales, Ireland. Just me opinion but the finest fashion statements from Italy will be worn thin, packed up or tossed out many years before our Brit counterpart is even showing any signs of wear.

Also I do think there is a influence all the time from England in colors of ties, shirts and socks, pocket squares. It is just the same in some ways here in the US also....but I personally think the classic look from England it fantastic. Tan wool trousers with a pattern, off white shirt, plaid neck tie or bow tie, nice heavy medium brown tweed sport coat, and argyle socks and a pair or brown wingtips. Screams British Isle....the "Row".....

 

[esteban68]

We are lucky in a way as it's all still being made.....at a price! occasionally you'll find vintage originals but suits especially the 3 piece in good wearable modern sizes are thin on the ground probably because they were the mainstay of men into their 70's and 80's until recently, they literally got worn to death!
As to the Bowler & Brolly well as Edward says it's something very rare nowadays, I saw a few in the mid 1980's when I worked in London on and off around that time but on recent visits I can count on one hand how many gents I've seen wearing such items and they've all been chaps in the Guards.

 

[Hal]

Mattface - I take your point about the difficulty of finding shirts of a particular shape, but would assert that if men find ties "uncomfortable", it is usually because their shirt collars are too tight.

...I do have something to say about the tieless suit fashion. To me, an open-necked shirt is not a bad look, especially if worn with a shirt color other than just white, but it strikes me as unimaginative if the wearer is wearing a white shirt and a dark business suit, and done so often. It's a look that's become too commonplace to have any novelty to it, anymore, and the white tieless shirt is rather naked looking with a suit...Ties are really far more creative than modern creative types give them credit for. At places like the electronics companies of Silicon Valley and elsewhere in California, it is supposed to be looked down upon to wear a tie to work, while everyone wearing tieless dress shirts, polos, or t-shirts is OK.

The sentiments of this quotation (particularly the last sentence) reinforce my conviction about "fashionable prejudice", I'm afraid.
My dislike is not for open-necked shirts in general, but open-necked shirts worn with suits, blazers and sports jackets. This look to me is sloppy and unfinished, and I'm not likely to change my opinion about that! The casual open-necked shirt worn with a formal suit is also plain incongruous.

 

[mattface]

Mattface - I take your point about the difficulty of finding shirts of a particular shape, but would assert that if men find ties "uncomfortable", it is usually because their shirt collars are too tight.

The sentiments of this quotation (particularly the last sentence) reinforce my conviction about "fashionable prejudice", I'm afraid.
My dislike is not for open-necked shirts in general, but open-necked shirts worn with suits, blazers and sports jackets.

Absolutely it's because the collars are too tight! THat's exactly what I was saying. If you can find me an off the rack shirt with a 17.5" collar that doesn't look like a tent on me I'll buy half a dozen. As it is I settle for a 17" collar and an extra slim cut shirt, and it works out OK, but not exactly comfortable. Even having a shirt tailored usually won't work, because the arms are too big. If I could afford bespoke shirts I suppose I wouldn't have to deal with such compromises. I don't personally ever wear a suit without a tie. But I often wear a sport coat without a tie, and I don't do it because I'm being lazy, or don't have enough ties. It's because I think it looks good as a casual outfit. Your prejudice that wearing a jacket without a tie is the one that is out of sync with reality. Fashion is not something that is static. It changes, and though there may have been a time when a tie was a required accessory, now it's a frip no more necessary than a nice pocket square or a pretty watch or a ring. All can be nice to have. None are required to be well dressed.

Moreover I am not arguing from the position of one who is prejudiced against ties. I LIKE ties, and wear them frequently, but I don't believe that the lack of one automatically makes one a slob. I'm very happy about the recent resurgence in the bow tie, I like seeing them worn more, but I also can appreciate a well dressed man who is not wearing a tie.

 

[Hal]

It's because I think it looks good as a casual outfit. Your prejudice that wearing a jacket without a tie is the one that is out of sync with reality. Fashion is not something that is static. It changes, and though there may have been a time when a tie was a required accessory, now it's a frip no more necessary than a nice pocket square or a pretty watch or a ring. All can be nice to have. None are required to be well dressed...but I also can appreciate a well dressed man who is not wearing a tie.

I am sorry that you accuse me of prejudice; that will not alter my opinion. Wearing a jacket without a tie may be "out of sync with reality" but since when has prevailing practice in aesthetic matters been the best practice? Aesthetically speaking, there needs to be something like a tie, a bow-tie or a cravat at the neck. And surely jewellery is in a different category from clothing?

There are indeed plenty of well-dressed men who don't wear ties when they wear an "honest" casual ensemble, but not when they dress in hybrid mode, in which, to me, jacket without tie falls. It is only fair to state that my formative years of style were the late 1950s/early 1960s, when (on the whole in the UK), to wear a jacket without a tie or cravat was considered "bad form", so I may simply be one of my time. The tieless-but-jacketed look made a brief appearance in the early 1970s and was everywhere by the middle 1990s.

Occasionally I might wear a tweed jacket over an open-necked shirt with a crew-necked jumper in between; somewhat more often I wear a tweed jacket with a roll-necked jumper. But wearing a tie is my most frequent practice, and the closed collar has an advantage in winter-time.

 

[tropicalbob]

Hi, Matt. I haven't read through the whole thread, but have you tried Luxire or some of the other shirtmakers on this forum? Also, I agree with you that wearing a tie is a personal choice these days, and thank heavens for that. As I teach for a living, I wear ties most days, but it depends on the particular outfit. My colleagues are mostly slobs and the thought of them never enters my head when I'm dressing.

 

[mattface]

I am sorry that you accuse me of prejudice;

I actually responded to your accusation of prejudice with a counter accusation of prejudice. I put any non-functional article in the same category as jewelry, because it's only purpose is to decorate, and I don't count ties as articles of clothing, they are an accessory, and always have been considered so. I think it's great that you wear a tie frequently, and I would like to see more men dressing as well as I'm sure you do, but I do take umbrage at being called a slob, and though you didn't accuse me personally you cast a wide net when you made a judgement about all men who wear a jacket without a tie. That includes me along with actually the vast majority of men.

I get it that your formative years were in a different time. I was born in the 1970s, the era that brought us the leisure suit. That's basically when wearing a jacket without a tie was invented, and it's been pretty common practice for all of my not overly short life. My Grandfather who grew up in the great depression was a professional who wore a jacket frequently, and ties infrequently. Speaking of sloppy, the fashion of my adolescence was to wear a skinny necktie loose with an open collar and push up the sleeves of your jacket. Part of what you're saying here is that you came of age in a time when the prevailing fashion said wearing a jacket without a tie was "bad form". Well the thing is the prevailing fashion has not said that for around half a century now. Just because you are old enough to remember when it was so does not make it so. It erks you when you see a man wearing an open tie. I get that I have my own prejudices about proper dress, which may or may not have a basis in tradition or convention, but I also know they are MY prejudices, and just because I don't like the look of it doesn't actually make it wrong.

 

[mattface]

Hi, Matt. I haven't read through the whole thread, but have you tried Luxire or some of the other shirtmakers on this forum? Also, I agree with you that wearing a tie is a personal choice these days, and thank heavens for that. As I teach for a living, I wear ties most days, but it depends on the particular outfit. My colleagues are mostly slobs and the thought of them never enters my head when I'm dressing.

I Haven't, but I just may try them soon. Thanks!

 

[herringbonekid]

there is much photographic evidence of men going tieless with suit or sportcoat in the U.K. in the 20s - 50s period, but always with the shirt collar worn over the jacket,
which seems to alter the overall appearance into one that doesn't look as if you've just taken your tie off:

 

[GHT]

Also in mens accessories such as ties and pocket squares, dress formal attire, braces, belts, then outer wear, you know the shops that make those famous tweed overcoats and other shops that make the thick wool tweed sports coats. I do not name names, as there are so many TO name.

Robert Oliver, (formerly Charles Goddard,) Richard Smith, The Bespoke Tailor, Higgins & Brown, Jim Forbes. Surfing any or all of those will keep you and your's absorbed for quite a while.

 

[The Good]

there is much photographic evidence of men going tieless with suit or sportcoat in the U.K. in the 20s - 50s period, but always with the shirt collar worn over the jacket,
which seems to alter the overall appearance into one that doesn't look as if you've just taken your tie off:

That is one exception to the look I'm willing to make. To me, putting the collar over the lapels is a style itself. Too many people wearing tieless suits or jackets don't consider that detail. I'd still rather put on a tie, but the look in your picture actually does the tieless suit justice, compared to the commonly seen alternative of having the collar firmly inside of the jacket, often a button-down shirt.

If going tieless in a suit is normally OK in a suit-wearing workplace nowadays, what do you think employers would think of something more casual, like a knit tie or otherwise a flat-bottomed tie? And, what if that tie is loosened down around the collar? Would it still be considered too "conformist" or "dressed up" then?

 

[Hal]

I actually responded to your accusation of prejudice with a counter accusation of prejudice...but I do take umbrage at being called a slob, and though you didn't accuse me personally you cast a wide net when you made a judgement about all men who wear a jacket without a tie.

I would also take umbrage at being called a slob, and would never make such a personal accusation. You will look in vain for the word "all" in what I have written in this thread.

Speaking of sloppy, the fashion of my adolescence was to wear a skinny necktie loose with an open collar and push up the sleeves of your jacket.

I can remember this as well - Edward mentions this in one of his postings on this thread.
From your description of what your Grandfather wore it would appear that the tieless-but-jacketed look has had a much longer acceptance in the USA than here - so we have a UK/USA cultural difference.
Perhaps I have taken an unacceptably extreme view; but (believe me) I have no intention of EVER making a personal attack on someone because of stylistic differences of opinion.

 

[Hal]

there is much photographic evidence of men going tieless with suit or sportcoat in the U.K. in the 20s - 50s period, but always with the shirt collar worn over the jacket,
which seems to alter the overall appearance into one that doesn't look as if you've just taken your tie off.

I can remember this from the immediate postWW2 period, but think that it disappeared around 1950

 

[herringbonekid]

If going tieless in a suit is normally OK in a suit-wearing workplace nowadays, what do you think employers would think of something more casual, like a knit tie or otherwise a flat-bottomed tie? And, what if that tie is loosened down around the collar? Would it still be considered too "conformist" or "dressed up" then?

i admit to never having had to consider what employers would make of my dress sense (having always worked in a 'creative' industry).
i dress according to what i like which -at present - will be something between 1918 and 1952.

i find it hard to believe that an employer would get worked up over a loosened knit tie.

 

[LuvMyMan]

Robert Oliver, (formerly Charles Goddard,) Richard Smith, The Bespoke Tailor, Higgins & Brown, Jim Forbes. Surfing any or all of those will keep you and your's absorbed for quite a while.

Yes indeed, a few high quality names of clothing makers.

 

[Stanley Doble]

Interesting, I always thought the open collar with sport coat was an American look, specifically Broadway or Hollywood. I notice in your picture, it appears to be casual attire for an outdoor occasion on a hot summer day.

The striped jacket in the middle rear appears to be what one would wear to the sea shore.

 

[Stanley Doble]

An old friend, Canadian born, who worked in England in the forties and fifties told me on one occasion a memo was sent round the office giving the men permission to remove their jackets in view of the extreme heat. It was over 70 degrees. This amused him for some reason. No mention of loosening or removing neckties.

 

[Patrick Hall]

there is much photographic evidence of men going tieless with suit or sportcoat in the U.K. in the 20s - 50s period, but always with the shirt collar worn over the jacket,
which seems to alter the overall appearance into one that doesn't look as if you've just taken your tie off

Indeed, but all of the shirts in that photo look to me like what luxire calls the "one piece" collar - constructed to lay flat over the collar of a jacket. That particular brand of casual shirt is scarce outside of the vintage/bespoke world, it seems. This look is difficult to pull off with any other kind of shirt, IMHO. I find that the shirt w/o tie but with sportcoat look can be enhanced by buttoning the top button of the shirt. It maintains an air of formality even without the tie. If I go tieless, that's how I usually do it.

 

[The Good]

Indeed, but all of the shirts in that photo look to me like what luxire calls the "one piece" collar - constructed to lay flat over the collar of a jacket. That particular brand of casual shirt is scarce outside of the vintage/bespoke world, it seems. This look is difficult to pull off with any other kind of shirt, IMHO. I find that the shirt w/o tie but with sportcoat look can be enhanced by buttoning the top button of the shirt. It maintains an air of formality even without the tie. If I go tieless, that's how I usually do it.

That's another way to add a little style to the look.

 

[Hal]

An old friend, Canadian born, who worked in England in the forties and fifties told me on one occasion a memo was sent round the office giving the men permission to remove their jackets in view of the extreme heat. It was over 70 degrees. This amused him for some reason. No mention of loosening or removing neckties.

This doesn't surprise me at all! Tie-without-jacket has always been, I believe, more acceptable in the UK than in the USA (many American contributors on style fora seem to have a horror against omitting the jacket). To me it is a perfectly acceptable "professional" look so long as the shirt is long-sleeved and the trousers are flat-fronted (pleats really should be covered by a jacket, surely?). This was what I wore as a teacher in a college in hot weather.