IRVIN NUTS?...the ULTIMATE thread for those who love 'em!

[Alan Eardley]

I think that is a very convincing repro for the money. As you say a good alternative to the 'big (and expensive) two'.
A set of reused original zips (it would cost about £50) would really make it good.

Alan

I recieved my What price glory Irvin today, just in time for the crisp English winter, the price was a seductive £190 including trackable UK shipping by USPS.

I had to order size 40 as that's the smallest WPG make them in...I'd have prefered a 36 or 38...yes...I'm one of the remaining WW2 sized scrawny people on earth..

But it fits ok with a couple of layers underneath.

The wool is that perfect "teddy bear" colour I was after, and is nice and curly.

The leather is flawless, a lovely rich reddish brown, the stitching very well done.

The only minor point I could find is the buckle, it feels a bit thin and rough, rather "tinny" and the pin is very sharp on the end, I'm going to dremel it smooth incase it rips the leather, you could even get a good tailor to replace the buckle if you wished.

It came with leather pulls on the sleeve zips but I cut them off as one had a malformed/loose rivet...not a big deal as they were getting in the way anyhow.

I work next to a constantly open door, so I wore it all day at work and it was very snug.

Conclusion:
If you're not made of money and fancy a damn fine Irvin repro at less than half the cost of the big boys, this is for you.
It LOOKS like an Irvin, and it KEEPS you warm, that's what matters to me

 

[boyorastroboy]

I think that is a very convincing repro for the money. As you say a good alternative to the 'big (and expensive) two'.
A set of reused original zips (it would cost about £50) would really make it good.

Alan

I've been enjoying my recently aquired WPG Irivin immensely as well, but do share ukali1066's evaluation of the hardware--it's pretty crappy, and not even just from an authenticity standpoint. I don't think the main zip has a whole lot of seasons before it fails, mine's already popped apart at the bottom once or twice. I've read several suggestions on this forum about replacing the zips. Does anyone have advice on sourcing such items? What about sourcing a more accurate buckle?

 

[Alan Eardley]

Sleeve zips are common enough in the UK - usually Lightnings. Main zips with a Dot stopper box are less common but are found from time to time. Coincidentally I picked one up (single trunnion, no AM but 'Made in England') in a market in Birmingham today. Buckles are the same as for the B-3 - originals are found, but any company that makes a decent B-3 copy should be able to provide you with one.

The best reproductions of bronze Lightning zips come from not far from you - Harlan Glenn in Canada. They are sold in the UK by Soldier of Fortune and cost 15 GBP. They are a reasonable length for sleeve zips and really cannot be distinguished frm originals other than by their condition. You would need to improvise a bit with the main zip, but the slider/puller from one of the above could be added to a suitable bronze zip track if you weren't too fussy about the stopper box.

Alan

I've been enjoying my recently aquired WPG Irivin immensely as well, but do share ukali1066's evaluation of the hardware--it's pretty crappy, and not even just from an authenticity standpoint. I don't think the main zip has a whole lot of seasons before it fails, mine's already popped apart at the bottom once or twice. I've read several suggestions on this forum about replacing the zips. Does anyone have advice on sourcing such items? What about sourcing a more accurate buckle?

 

[jcw122]

I've been noticing a lot of rough copies of this jacket design in stores...nothing compares to the original, what a stunning piece of clothing.

 

[Windsock]

I would recommend looking at the archives for Flight Magazine. I have found adverts for Irvin Air chute jackets from 1937 until 1939. These show the two panel jacket and trousers. Just do a Google search for Flight Mag and click the archive section and type in "Irvin flying jackets". There is no advert for Wareings, but both Lewis outlets are there.

This is a sample of what I found- they are great Andrew, what a find. The layout and content were established with the 1937 ad then this was slightly altered each year until 1942 when they introduced the Polar Bear- quite contemporary looking ads in terms of layout.

The concept of the overlapping jacket and trousers is well described here as well, particularly with the 1940 ad. It has a small diagram describing how an effective seal is achieved.

Great stuff.

 

[Windsock]

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa122/lewisleathers/March231944.jpg[/IMG]

"we pay top prices..." How does 700 quid sound? They would never have believed it.

 

[Smithy]

Great ads Aviakid and Windsock and please keep them coming.

Andrew (Windsock), I had heard of "Irvin" trousers being made in NZ and I know one chap back home who swears that a small number of jackets were also made there in the early war years. Whether true or not I couldn't say but like so many things about Irvin history it's another little piece of tantalising rumour.

I also agree with your idea of a coffee table approach to a book on Irvins. The amount of research needed is mind-boggling but wouldn't it be great if it happened.

 

[Alan Eardley]

Great stuff indeed. For some reason I can't explain other than that I have all the 'props' handy (I hate taking photographs) I feel an urge to recreate the sequence showing the model donning the Irvinsuit over a DB flannel. suit

Alan

This is a sample of what I found- they are great Andrew, what a find. The layout and content were established with the 1937 ad then this was slightly altered each year until 1942 when they introduced the Polar Bear- quite contemporary looking ads in terms of layout.

The concept of the overlapping jacket and trousers is well described here as well, particularly with the 1940 ad. It has a small diagram describing how an effective seal is achieved.

Great stuff.

 

[nightandthecity]

Great ads Aviakid and Windsock and please keep them coming.

Andrew (Windsock), I had heard of "Irvin" trousers being made in NZ and I know one chap back home who swears that a small number of jackets were also made there in the early war years. Whether true or not I couldn't say but like so many things about Irvin history it's another little piece of tantalising rumour.

I also agree with your idea of a coffee table approach to a book on Irvins. The amount of research needed is mind-boggling but wouldn't it be great if it happened.

I don't think it would be too hard to research, but it would be pretty time consuming and expensive - and unlikely to attract the academic grant which would ease things considerably!

re Commonwealth jackets: some of you may have come across the very rare black fur Irvin, and I've frequently heard collectors say these are Canadian. Unfortunately, though I handled literally hundreds of jackets in the 80s and early 90s I only ever had one black fur through my hands, and that one had a fairly conventional UK Air Ministry label. On the other hand, the label could easily have been added in RAF stores, and these "black" jackets do meet what seems to be a general principle of CW equipment - that it is "obviously related to, but significantly different from" RAF gear.

I have also heard it said that Irvins were still being made in India for the Indian Air Force into the 1980s, but if so I have never seen an obvious or even a claimed example.

At this stage I'll thow another puzzle into the ring: early in my dealing career I started coming across these (and apologies to the anonymous model for lifting his pix from ebay!)

Most collectors I have spoken to have presumed they are civilian, but the few I examined had standard "later war" RAF zips e.g. N's and Lightnings. (I'm having to cast my mind back a long way here, and can't remember whether the ones I saw were actually AM stamped or not). I was occasionally offered them for sale by veterans, and personally have no doubt they were military issue. My own theory at the time - based on the zips and what looks very much like a US design influence (B3 style pockets and definite overall similarity to the AN-J-4) - was that these were a short lived replacement for the Irvin dating to round 1943/44. Unfortunately, I never came across one with a label, but since then I have seen this on ebay......

not exactly the same, but clearly very closely related. So are these actually Australian "Irvins"? A blend of British and US design influences is certainly very typical of Commonwealth equipment.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

There's one very much like the first one you posted, natc, in a store in London. It has the deco Lightning zip, no sleeve zips, and the angled waist pockets like that one. It was cheap enough, and close enough in fit, that i was about to buy it as a stand-in until I found the Irvin.

bk

 

[nightandthecity]

yes, they can be had very cheap as collectors don't like them. The general consnsus seems to be that they are civilian, but as I said I think that consensus is probably mistaken.

Back in the 80s I used to advertize in local papers for Irvins and was frequently phoned by people offering these jackets. I invariably turned them down because I found out early on that they were really hard to shift. I wish now I had at least gone and looked at them all and given them a thorough Sherlock Holmes treatment.

 

[aswatland]

I had always believed the low grade Irvins with pockets were for RAF ground crew like the D1 for mechanics and those without pockets and with the one piece back were were late war/immediate post war aircrew jackets. Whatever the case I guess some of the ground crew ones found their way into the air like the D1 did. Whilst some had wartime Lightning zips others had Clix zips, which I understand were used from the late '40s.

These jackets are certainly not so collectable, although you often see them advertised on Ebay as genuine RAF wartime aircrew jackets and perhaps there is some truth in this now!

 

[Alan Eardley]

I bought one of these (a bit of a wreck) for £10 last week. It has a Dot single trunnion zip without AM markings. There are strange leather facings and pockets, as you say, just like a B-3 but on both sides. In fact, it looks like a poor copy of a B-3 - particularly the sleeves. Isn't that a great copy of a Lightning?

I have often thought that they were 'private purchase' or 'munition' items. They seem to have been worn by ground crew in the early postwar period, like the leather jerkin was worn in wartime. I wonder if this was where the legend that 'the Irvin jacket' was issued until the 1950s came from?

The lower example is a classic 'Mark VI' (sometimes called a 'Mark IV') - probably postwar civilian but often claimed to be issue. The 'surplus' shops were full of them in the 60s (but with real 'Irvins' I think in the 50s).

Fascinating stuff!

Mick Prodgers' book has a black 'Irvin' doen't it?

Alan

At this stage I'll thow another puzzle into the ring: early in my dealing career I started coming across these (and apologies to the anonymous model for lifting his pix from ebay!)

Most collectors I have spoken to have presumed they are civilian, but the few I examined had standard "later war" RAF zips e.g. N's and Lightnings. (I'm having to cast my mind back a long way here, and can't remember whether the ones I saw were actually AM stamped or not). I was occasionally offered them for sale by veterans, and personally have no doubt they were military issue. My own theory at the time - based on the zips and what looks very much like a US design influence (B3 style pockets and definite overall similarity to the AN-J-4) - was that these were a short lived replacement for the Irvin dating to round 1943/44. Unfortunately, I never came across one with a label, but since then I have seen this on ebay......

 

[PADDY]

Gentlemen: Just to quickly say...

As an Irvin/Sheepskin lover, these are threads of gold you gents are weaving with and I am learning so much just reading the play, enthusiasm, interaction and exchange of information going on in here.

Thankyou!! :eusa_clap

 

[Baron Kurtz]

This is why i tried to direct people to this thread who maybe hadn't seen the thread before. (in the "there are few good threads now" thread in O.B.). This thread - like show us your suits used to be - is an exemplar of how a thread should progress.

bk

 

[Windsock]

At this stage I'll thow another puzzle into the ring: early in my dealing career I started coming across these (and apologies to the anonymous model for lifting his pix from ebay!)

Most collectors I have spoken to have presumed they are civilian, but the few I examined had standard "later war" RAF zips e.g. N's and Lightnings. (I'm having to cast my mind back a long way here, and can't remember whether the ones I saw were actually AM stamped or not). I was occasionally offered them for sale by veterans, and personally have no doubt they were military issue. My own theory at the time - based on the zips and what looks very much like a US design influence (B3 style pockets and definite overall similarity to the AN-J-4) - was that these were a short lived replacement for the Irvin dating to round 1943/44. Unfortunately, I never came across one with a label, but since then I have seen this on ebay......

not exactly the same, but clearly very closely related. So are these actually Australian "Irvins"? A blend of British and US design influences is certainly very typical of Commonwealth equipment.

I had one of those B-3-esque jackets a few years ago. It was said to have come from a fellow who was ground crew at Raydon, though it had a Distinctive Insignia lapel badge of the 10thTCS on it which looked totally original and they weren't based there but may have passed through. I assumed it was US made and it had the characteristic feature of being incredibly brittle. I can't recall thetype of zip it had.

WRT the Australian made one, that's the first i've seen exactly like that and with a wartime label with the coded manufacturer. The number's not familiar either other than it was located in NSW. All the shots i've ever seen of our aircrew wearing Irvins they are always the standard pattern, nothing like this and you would presume they were issued those only in theatre as there was no need for them here. I have bought one here which was ex-RAAF bomber crew but again it was standard 2 panel type with lightnings. The other definite Australian used Irvins i've seen which are in the RAAF Museum at Point Cook are 1941 four panel types, so I have no idea what that thing is- other than not very pretty.

Still looking however and hope to find evidence of a locally made standard Irvin pattern jacket. I'm hoping because the 1936 pattern boots were essentially exactly the same, the sidcots very similar, Type B helmets (appear only to be used for training) were similar but lightweight, type C helmets the same etc etc.

 

[Spitfire]

This thread is getting better and better.
Thank you gents!:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

 

[Windsock]

Great ads Aviakid and Windsock and please keep them coming.

Andrew (Windsock), I had heard of "Irvin" trousers being made in NZ and I know one chap back home who swears that a small number of jackets were also made there in the early war years. Whether true or not I couldn't say but like so many things about Irvin history it's another little piece of tantalising rumour.

I also agree with your idea of a coffee table approach to a book on Irvins. The amount of research needed is mind-boggling but wouldn't it be great if it happened.

Smithy I can't recall where I saw it either, some forum in some gallaxy... Here's a link to a NZ site which posesses a varaition of an Irvin jacket I'd never before seen. It appears to have press studs in lieu of a main zip. Probably aftermarket? He has a copyright rider on all his images so i'm linking his site.

http://warbirdsite.com/museumclothing.html

WRT to the book i can feel the weight already and visualize it, however the text could become a little monotonous... here's another coommonly understood to be from ...sometime around... when we believe that these were introduced... possibly also...
It will take a Master Sage to weave this story, just got to have one volunteer.

Andrew

 

[fishmeok]

I don't think the main zip has a whole lot of seasons before it fails, mine's already popped apart at the bottom once or twice. /QUOTE]

Apparently this is an issue with the latest batch of WPG Irvins. My brother had his zipper fail completely in less than a month. Gerry offered to replace the jacket or pay for zip replacement (chose to go for the latter). If you are having problems with the hardware I'd contact WPG directly. The zips, buckles, etc. on my "first pattern" WPG Irvin are showing no signs of failure or wear after almost 4 years of use.

Cheers
Mark
Waiting eagerly for my flying boots...

 

[Alan Eardley]

Coincidentally. WPG has a business association with SoF in Wales which has a business association with Harlan Glenn in Canada who does the best repro Lightning zips (and the best Denison smock).

Anybody fancy starting a separate Denison/parachute smock thread? I particularly like the post-war derivatives - the Belgian and (my favourite) the Canadian para smock. Paddy - want to start one?

Alan

I don't think the main zip has a whole lot of seasons before it fails, mine's already popped apart at the bottom once or twice. /QUOTE]

Apparently this is an issue with the latest batch of WPG Irvins. My brother had his zipper fail completely in less than a month. Gerry offered to replace the jacket or pay for zip replacement (chose to go for the latter). If you are having problems with the hardware I'd contact WPG directly. The zips, buckles, etc. on my "first pattern" WPG Irvin are showing no signs of failure or wear after almost 4 years of use.

Cheers
Mark
Waiting eagerly for my flying boots...