IRVIN NUTS?...the ULTIMATE thread for those who love 'em!

[aswatland]

I recently bought a mid war Irvin and trousers. The trousers have the maker's label: Lambskin Ltd. Of Tel-Aviv, under contract no. L1/8/L1/303/L. I will post a pic of the label the weekend. Again it proves the AM had contracts outside the UK. The trousers are inferior quality compared with long established British forms such as Irvin Air Chute and Wareings.

 

[Smithy]

...also just to add with the one you have posted Andrew. The personalised artwork on the back would seem to suggest a Canadian owner as from the photos I have Canadian aircrew seemed far more likely to add personal touches to their Irvins than British and other Commonwealth personnel.

 

[aswatland]

...also just to add with the one you have posted Andrew. The personalised artwork on the back would seem to suggest a Canadian owner as from the photos I have Canadian aircrew seemed far more likely to add personal touches to their Irvins than British and Commonwealth personnel.

Now we need the name of a Canadian Irvin maker.

 

[Smithy]

Do we have a Canadian member here who can do a bit of digging around about this?

Possibly connected to all of this is the fact that there seems to be a lot of different procedures and methods of equipping personnel trained in Canada. For example Norwegian airmen in training (although under the auspices of the British training scheme and to become members of the RAF) were issued American A-2s, but RNZAF personnel were issued British made Irvins (at least in the first two or so years of the war). So who knows if Canada was given contracts for homemade Irivns with which to equip some of their airmen in training.

There's definitely a bit of a mystery here.

 

[nightandthecity]

Many thanks for posting those Andrew!

That is very similar to the one I saw on eBay about 2002, however the outside leather on the one I saw was noticeably darker. At the time I emailed a RAF reenactor I know (as I hadn't seen one before and I was both curious and sceptical) but he said they do exist but are as rare as hen's teeth.

Surely not many can have been made because I don't even seem to have any period photos in my books and I have a fair few pics of aircrew in Irvins.

In terms of the Canadian link, how many other countries do we know may have made Irvins? I mentioned someone I know who thought a maker in NZ had constructed a few but to be honest I haven't heard anyone else saying this (although there are the rumours that both Irvin trousers and '36 and '39 pattern flying boots were made there which might lend credence if true to other items of AM issue flying kit being made there). But are there other countries that we can say for sure definitely manufactured them?

This really has got my curiosity up...

I have seen a few pairs of Australian made 1936 boots. I've only owned one pair - they came from an RAF veteran, were identical to standard 1936 pattern, and had an Aussie makers label in......unfortunately I can't remember whether or not there were any government markings which would rule out the possibility of private purchase. But as far as I know all the Dominions, as sovereign states, contracted at home for their own equipment. Sometimes they seem to have reproduced British designs, sometimes they put their own slant on British designs, sometimes they produced something distinctively their own. However, CW airmen stationed in the UK usually seem to be pictured in what looks like standard British gear.

 

[nightandthecity]

Do we have a Canadian member here who can do a bit of digging around about this?

Possibly connected to all of this is the fact that there seems to be a lot of different procedures and methods of equipping personnel trained in Canada. For example Norwegian airmen in training (although under the auspices of the British training scheme and to become members of the RAF) were issued American A-2s, but RNZAF personnel were issued British made Irvins (at least in the first two or so years of the war). So who knows if Canada was given contracts for homemade Irivns with which to equip some of their airmen in training.

There's definitely a bit of a mystery here.

slightly OT, many RAF airmen trained in the USA under the Arnold scheme. One veteran I talked to about this says they were issued with all USAAF uniform and equipment including A2 jackets, and they received US wings on graduation. He still had the photos to prove it.....and the wings! Unfortunately, not the A-2!

re Canadian equipment: I suppose the British government might contract in Canada, but the real issue is did the RCAF contract in Canada for their own flying jackets or import Irvins from the UK? As far as I know they generally contracted for their uniform and equipment at home, and I'm sure flight jackets will have been no exception.

The question then becomes: did they simply reproduce the Irvin, did they have their own slant on the design, or did they have something quite different? Most of the RCAF gear I have seen - flying suits, boots, gloves, helmets - seems to show a fascinating mixture of British and US design influences. Some items are more "American", some more "British", but always very distinctive. My instinct is that the "black irvin" may not be distinctive enough, but......?

 

[Spitfire]

I'd love to see the pics Andrew.

Thanks for posting the pic Spitty but like Andrew it looks strange to my eyes. Look at the jacket's right hand front, it's lacking an Irvin's (for want of a better word) notched lapel collar and front - if you know what I mean. As a result both sides of the jacket are symmetrical unlike an Irvin.

Which - again - only shows, that you can not believe the movies.
This thread is becomming more and more fascinating. Sorry I can not join in - but I sure am learning.

 

[Smithy]

slightly OT, many RAF airmen trained in the USA under the Arnold scheme. One veteran I talked to about this says they were issued with all USAAF uniform and equipment including A2 jackets, and they received US wings on graduation. He still had the photos to prove it.....and the wings! Unfortunately, not the A-2!

Now that is interesting nightandthecity! I was only aware of Norwegian aircrew in training at "Little Norway" in Canada being issued A-2s and so the only aircrew serving in RAF squadrons who wore A-2s. That is a great eye-opening piece of info. Although I still believe that it was only the Norwegian Squadrons with the RAF who wore them at unit level.

But as far as I know all the Dominions, as sovereign states, contracted at home for their own equipment. Sometimes they seem to have reproduced British designs, sometimes they put their own slant on British designs, sometimes they produced something distinctively their own. However, CW airmen stationed in the UK usually seem to be pictured in what looks like standard British gear.

I think this is true to a degree nightandthecity. Using the RNZAF (which is an interest of mine), those personnel who went on to serve with RAF squadrons or the NZ Squadrons of the RAF used standard RAF AM issued equipment. However those which served in the Pacific quite often used an unusual mix of British, US and home grown kit.

But we've probably digressed from the Irvin question. I suppose what is interesting to me is that rumours exist that a number of countries possibly manufactured Irvin jackets and trousers (albeit in small quantities). And it would be great if we could ascertain whether black Irvins were a Canadian thing or simply British Irvin manufacturers running out of fleece and reverting to different coloured sheepskins.

By the way, this is a fascinating discussion and it's great to hear opinions and pieces of information regarding it.

 

[nightandthecity]

Now that is interesting nightandthecity! I was only aware of Norwegian aircrew in training at "Little Norway" in Canada being issued A-2s and so the only aircrew serving in RAF squadrons who wore A-2s. That is a great eye-opening piece of info. Although I still believe that it was only the Norwegian Squadrons with the RAF who wore them at unit level.

I should have made it clear that they only wore US uniform and kit whilst training in the US. I presume that this would all have been returned on graduation (though not the wings of course)

I think this is true to a degree nightandthecity. Using the RNZAF (which is an interest of mine), those personnel who went on to serve with RAF squadrons or the NZ Squadrons of the RAF used standard RAF AM issued equipment. However those which served in the Pacific quite often used an unusual mix of British, US and home grown kit.

That is the impression I have got too. I have come across a fair bit of distinctively Canadian kit over the years, but I've never seen it in pics of RCAF units with RAF Bomber Command.

Incidentally, around 1985 I bought gloves and full headgear from an RCAF Bomber Command veteran who had been stationed at Linton-on Ouse, married an English girl, and settled down in the UK - it was all standard AM issue. I also saw his Irvin (unfortunately, it was promised to the man next door) and it was also standard AM - 1941 pattern, DOT zips, AM label. A beautiful jacket, I remember it well and still covet it......

 

[Windsock]

Only in the movies:

Plummers jacket is a definite movie prop and the only similarity it has to an Irvin is that it's made from sheepskin.

This is particualrly obvious when you look at his sleeves, they are loose and baggy at the cuffs.

Similarly in "mosquito Squadron", David McCallums jacket is different from all the others which appear more original.

 

[Windsock]

I should have made it clear that they only wore US uniform and kit whilst training in the US. I presume that this would all have been returned on graduation (though not the wings of course)



That is the impression I have got too. I have come across a fair bit of distinctively Canadian kit over the years, but I've never seen it in pics of RCAF units with RAF Bomber Command.
......

I don't know for a fact but almost all the kit that was used here (helmets, flying suits, comms, masks) being of a slightly different design than AM equipment was used for training only, probably didn't find its way to Europe or Nth Africa, and also probably wasn't used in the Pacific War. All the shots I have seen of Aircrew training here were wearing stuff that never appears in shots later in the War or in Theatre.

The reasons probably lie in that it wasn't practical to cart all that stuff across the world, also resupply would simply be impossible, it wasn't as well designed and it wasn't standard which most equipment would have needed to be. I know that my Beaufighter Mate went to the UK via New York and just had his personal stuff with him. Uniforms are a different story.

An exception to the equipment is the '36 pattern boots you mention. They are exactly the same as AM types except for the labeling- ours were made by Bedgood (Melbourne) and so don't have the AM stamps. I have a pair of AM's, one no-name pair (which I reckon could be the ones in the ad a few pages back) and 2 pairs of Bedgoods, one black and one brown which have the name and number of an AAF Lt inside- 5th AF would use these as they were brown in colour.
Here's the Black Bedgoods, belonged to WC Irving Stanley Smith, Commander 487Sq RNZAF, leader of raid at Amiens Prison, 1944. He had these when he did his training in Australia and they stayed with him until about 2000.

 

[Windsock]

...it would be great if we could ascertain whether black Irvins were a Canadian thing or simply British Irvin manufacturers running out of fleece and reverting to different coloured sheepskins.

By the way, this is a fascinating discussion and it's great to hear opinions and pieces of information regarding it.

A couple of thoughts on this;
- As suitable sheepskins became more scarce later in the War and jakcets were being made in ever smaller pieces (well that's the popular philosophy although examples of multipanel Irvins existed well before the War), surely the black sheep would have been feeling less safe that they weren't also being harvested? The original contracts possibly stipulated the colour of the fleece for standardization but if you have the black fleeces on hand they would not have been ignored.
- We don't have black sheep here- probably cos it's too hot and I don't know if they did in Sth Africa, Canada or NZ, but you do in the UK don't you? Anyway, it's a less common colour for sheep so fewer fleeces available.
Perhaps sopmeone in Canada can fill us in on whether they ever bred black sheep there- if they didn't or if they were uncommon that might limit things a little.

 

[Windsock]

I didn't find anything when I googled "Harlan Glenn", maybe they don't have an internet presence...

I emailed SoF and asked them about it as I'd read it on a forum sometime. They were the one's who suggested that either HG or they weren't doing them anymore or that they weren't suitable. Sorry I can't be more specific but the Brain's not recalling like it should.

 

[Windsock]

Images of RAAF trainees both here and in Canada (under the EATS) show them almost always wearing some form of sidcot suit. I don't recall ever seing any wearing an Irvin, but i'd like to. Perhaps they weren't made there either. Please somebody find a shot of them in use in Canada.

Here's one of some RAAF trainees, the top shot is hard to make out exactly what it is they are wearing but the bottom one appears to be a form of sidcot suit.

 

[Mike1973]

RCAF

While surfing this site http://www.rcaf.com/archives/archives_photographs/clarke/photographs/pages/30_jpg.htm
I came across this unusual jacket...

I'm still going through the photo collections on this site...

 

[Mike1973]

Here's one of some RAAF trainees, the top shot is hard to make out exactly what it is they are wearing but the bottom one appears to be a form of sidcot suit.

Same suit?

http://www.rcaf.com/archives/archives_photographs/no6efts/AroundtheBase/index.php?ss=off&action=displayBig&iteminfo=solo|base06.jpg

http://www.rcaf.com/archives/archives_photographs/no6efts/deHavillandTigerMoth/index.php?ss=off&action=displayBig&iteminfo=solo|tiger15.jpg

 

[PADDY]

Royal Australian Air Force...(note the special designs)

The plane is the 'giveaway!! ' Especially designed by the RAAF to fly 'down under' and hug the earth's upsidedown curviture!! INCREDIBLE ACHIEVEMENT!!

Now THAT is Irvin Suit weather!!!!

 

[carouselvic]

RAF B-3 Type

I'm wanting to get a sheepskin jacket and was thinking about a Aviation Leathercraft (with pockets). Thoughts pros or cons.

 

[Smithy]

Hi Carouselvic,

Firstly just to let you know, the RAF sheepskin jacket that you are referring to is an Irvin jacket, a B-3 was an American sheepskin flying jacket but quite different in many ways from the Irvin.

The Aviation Leathercraft (often referred to in this thread as AL or ALC) Irvins are not the closest repros of wartime Irvins available (Eastman and Aero's offerings are probably the closest) but they are well-made and very warm. Original Irvins were never made with pockets and if it was me I would choose a jacket without as IMHO it can spoil the shape of the jacket. I have an Irvin (Eastman) which has no pockets and do not miss having such a feature (that's why trouser pockets were invented!).

Con-wise the standard weight AL Irvin can be very, very bulky. Have a look back in this thread to the AL Irvin that Spitfire had made for him. They used less bulky fleeces in his jacket (although it is not an AL Lightweight Irvin which AL also offer) and it is superb and more closely resembles a wartime Irvin.

Also, have a really good look over this thread as there are lots of pictures of the various repros available as well as originals.

All the best with getting your Irvin!

 

[Spitfire]

This is the jacket Smithy wrote about.
Specially chosen lighter fleece from AL. And NO pockets!

Believe me - its a great Irvin.