How to avoid being scammed on eBay

[Strider]

I thought I would post this here, as I recently saved a friend from a $1,000 USD loss by doing what I am about to elaborate on, and thought that since there were a lot of members here who use eBay, it would be useful to them.

My friend James recently bought a valuable item on eBay (very collectible baseball cards) that was slightly over $1,000 USD at auction's end. He told the seller to insure the cards for $1,000, and to include delivery confirmation. The seller did these things, and I just happened to be over at his house playing poker with him when the mailmain knocked on the door, as the package was a little too big for his mailbox. James was excited, exclaiming "oh, my cards are here!" I went to the door with him so I could see the cards when he opened the package, and since the postal carrier was right there, I asked her if she'd mind watching as James opened the package.

James was perplexed, but the postal carrier didn't mind. She stood by, and James opened the package. Nothing but 9 empty card sleeves. Welcome to your textbook eBay scam.

The seller sells the item, insures it, and adds delivery confirmation, but does not include the correct item (if they include anything of value at all) in the package. Usually, the postal carrier drops the package off when the recipient is at work or elsewhere, and the recipient comes home long afterward, only to find out then that they have recieved a bum package.

With no [credible] witnesses around to have seen the package being opened, there is no way the buyer can prove that they did not simply recieve the item and hide it before making a complaint to the seller and eBay. The delivery confirmation further protects the seller, as the seller complains that USPS confirms the package has having been delivered, and the seller will wonder aloud to eBay: "Why would I insure an empty box?".

The buyer's hands are tied at that point. Even if the buyer WAS savvy enough to have called a public service police officer to witness the opening of the package, it has to be done after it has been recieved, as no one has a cop just standing by waiting for a package to come. Because of that, the buyer can't prove that they did not tamper with the package before the officer arrived, and the same goes for taking the package to a notary public to witness the opening.

However, if you ask the postal carrier to witness the opening, the postal carrier could then testify that he/she handed the package to the recipient, and the recipient opened it right then, verifying that it has not been tampered with.

James took the postal carrier's information, and went to the seller. The seller tried to play hard ball, claiming no proof, etc., etc. My friend replied that he had the postal carrier witness the opening, and within the hour, his money had been refunded. He was lucky.

Not everyone can be home when a postal carrier drops off a package. Always ask a seller to include signature confirmation on a package, and pay the extra. The carrier cannot drop it off without a signature, nor can anyone take it from the post office without such. This insures that you will always be able to use the USPS as a witness to the opening of the package. The extra safety signature confirmation provides you is worth the few extra dollars you will pay to add it.

The scammers get away with it because most people don't think to do this, and by the time they realize they've been had, it's too late.

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

Good call on your part to have a credible witness. Did this seller have an extraordinary amount of negative feedback on record? Too many negatives raises my suspicions.

 

[Strider]

No, no negatives. Usually what happens is a buyer won't leave negative feedback in a case like this, because they know that the seller will then bomb them with retalitory negative feedback, as well. The seller plays dumb, swearing that he is innocent, and the buyer just ends up eating the loss.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

Hi Strider- Did you friend pay with a credit card or PayPal? A "not as described" complaint can be filed and he will get his money back, no witnesses or proof needed. Sadly many sellers get scammed this way, too, but it's good protection for honest buyers.

 

[Strider]

He payed through PayPal, but unfortunately, it's not that easy. You can't just make a "not as described" claim to PayPal and expect them to zap your money back to you right away. Being an eBay company, PayPal knows just as well as you and I that there are scammers out there trying to make a buck. Not just off of unsuspecting buyers, but off of PayPal itself. They would "investigate" the claim, I think, and as described, the buyer really doesn't have any proof of what he is claiming most times. We were lucky that we were able to shake down the scammer for his money back. Otherwise, it would have been a long, arduous process, most likely resulting in nothing happening.

PayPal won't just give you your money back because you ask. If you can't prove to them that you're not the one trying to scam them, then you're still hosed.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

He payed through PayPal, but unfortunately, it's not that easy. You can't just make a "not as described" claim to PayPal and expect them to zap your money back to you right away. Being an eBay company, PayPal knows just as well as you and I that there are scammers out there trying to make a buck. Not just off of unsuspecting buyers, but off of PayPal itself. They would "investigate" the claim, I think, and as described, the buyer really doesn't have any proof of what he is claiming most times. We were lucky that we were able to shake down the scammer for his money back. Otherwise, it would have been a long, arduous process, most likely resulting in nothing happening.

PayPal won't just give you your money back because you ask. If you can't prove to them that you're not the one trying to scam them, then you're still hosed.

Strider- You're right, one doesn't simply ask for his or her money back from PayPal, he or she would file a formal "not as described complaint" in the complaint resolution center in the PP account. If someone used a credit card, and PP does not refund the money, the cc company will without proof.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

PayPal won't just give you your money back because you ask. If you can't prove to them that you're not the one trying to scam them, then you're still hosed.

One other thing- I invite you to visit the seller messages board on ebay and see how often PayPal does refund a buyer's money, no questions asked.

 

[Strider]

If they do that, then I'd be surprised. Do they just refund the money and eat the loss? They'd have to get their money back somehow, or else everyone would rip them off like that. It wouldn't make sense for them to take the money back from the seller without rock solid proof of wrong-doing, just because the buyer said "I didn't get what I paid for". "So-and-so said you didn't give them what they paid for, so we're taking the money back from you to cover the refund we gave them. If that takes your bank account into the red, oh well." I would be shocked to see this happening.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

If they do that, then I'd be surprised. Do they just refund the money and eat the loss? They'd have to get their money back somehow, or else everyone would rip them off like that. It wouldn't make sense for them to take the money back from the seller without rock solid proof of wrong-doing, just because the buyer said "I didn't get what I paid for". "So-and-so said you didn't give them what they paid for, so we're taking the money back from you to cover the refund we gave them. If that takes your bank account into the red, oh well." I would be shocked to see this happening.

The seller eats the loss, not PP, and yes, when you sign up to use PP, it's in the fine print that you give them permission to recover losses by any legal means. When you use a credit card to pay via PP, PP is just the intermediary; if the cc takes the money back, PP has no say over that.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

By the way, I'm not saying I agree with PP, just sharing what I've read from message boards and fine print, and also doing a buyer complaint myself once.

 

[Strider]

Wow ... that's just ... wrong. Taking money, no proof of wrong-doing required. That leaves the door open for anyone to scam a legit seller by making such a claim, and making off like a bandit with their now-free item.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

Wow ... that's just ... wrong. Taking money, no proof of wrong-doing required. That leaves the door open for anyone to scam a legit seller by making such a claim, and making off like a bandit with their now-free item.

Yes it does! It's a scary aspect of accepting credit cards when selling online. But checks can bounce, too, so it's just part of the risk of doing biz. [huh]

 

[PrettySquareGal]

From PayPal

Protection Policies - World Seller Program

What is seller protection?

PayPal is committed to protecting our sellers against fraudulent chargebacks by buyers. For World Sellers, if the seller follows the established PayPal seller protection policy guidelines, including shipping goods to a US buyer at a confirmed address, then PayPal will protect the seller.

For what situations will I receive seller protection coverage?

* Credit card chargebacks from fraudulent card use
* Credit card chargebacks for false claims of non-delivery
* Buyer complaints for false claims of non-delivery

What is not covered under seller protection:

* "Significantly Not as Described" chargeback claims
* Transactions to non-US buyers
* Transactions to US buyers who do not have confirmed addresses
* Any transactions in which the seller did not follow the SPP guidelines

 

[Strider]

I assume PP will take the money straight out of the bank account associated with the PP account, and that may well take said bank account into the red. Is this how it works? Wow! I can't believe how ridiculous that is. :eusa_doh:

What options would an actual legitimate seller have if he found himself in a situation where someone makes a "not as described" claim? Any? Or would you just be shucks out of luck?

 

[PrettySquareGal]

I gotta split for today, but check out the PP fine print. Bring a lunch, it's long!

 

[Zemke Fan]

Interesting thread...

People tempted to scam (either once or for a living) ought to realize that a scam through eBay involving the USPS and shipments across state lines probably constitutes mail/wire fraud and is a federal felony offense with nasty penalties. I hope that eBay works with the authorities to prosecute these offenders to the maximum extent of the law and THEN publicizes the results. That could help to reduce the number of incidents.

As for me, I stay away from the really expensive auctions on eBay. For one thing, I don't have the disposable income right now to support such a habit and secondly, I'm a believer in "touching/feeling" something costing a lot of money before forking over the dough. -- ZF